Is A Plant-Exclusive Diet Really Better Than Eating Meat? | Adam Sud | Better Man Podcast Ep. 070

Dean Pohlman: Hey, guys, it’s Dean. Welcome to the Better Man podcast. Today I am rejoined by Adam Saad. We had a fantastic conversation last time. Brought him on to finish up our conversation. If you didn’t hear from Adam the first time. Adam is a nutritional and behavioral health expert. He’s a former food addict. And now the founder of the plant based for Positive Change nonprofit.

Dean Pohlman: Adam, welcome back. Thanks for thanks for joining me.

Adam Sud: Yeah, man, I’m excited to have this conversation. This is going to be a lot of fun and I think it’s going to be a valuable conversation to have a lot of people get get a little charged on this one.

Dean Pohlman: Oh, yeah. I mean, so so if you. Anyways, so, brother, you heard the last conversation or not. So we actually had this we had had a previous interview where we wanted to focus on too many things. And I realized, okay, maybe you guys won’t want to listen to a two hour podcast. I also don’t know if I have the mental capacity to have a conversation for 2 hours, quite honestly.

Dean Pohlman: So I was like, okay, why don’t we just let’s do a follow up interview? And in this discussion, we are going to talk everything vegan. Yeah, I’m, I’m and I told Adam before we started this conversation, I’m going to come at this like somebody who’s totally ignorant of being vegan, because in a lot of ways I am. And I’m also going to ask a lot of questions from perspective that I see, which is, you know, I think most people I think a lot I think I, I can only speak for myself.

Dean Pohlman: A lot of my interactions with vegans aren’t the ones where it’s like it’s like a it’s like a nice like, oh, I’m, I’m vegan. And if you eat meat, that’s okay. It’s, it’s kind of it’s kind of like, you know, if you’re sure you’re not vegan, it’s like, well, if you’re not with us, you’re against us. And it’s it’s kind of I always thought the interactions that I’ve had are are not overwhelmingly positive when it comes to someone who comes to Earth and is militantly vegan.

Dean Pohlman: So I want to have a conversation with with somebody who is going to, you know, answer a lot of the questions that I have, but in a factual manner rather than, you know, and we talked about this, but a lot of a lot of vegan information is really vegan propaganda. And it’s it’s not accurate. So, anyways, what are your what are your thoughts on that, Adam?

Dean Pohlman: How do how do we start this?

Adam Sud: Yeah, I’m happy to have this conversation precision. And, you know, to be fair, like, I completely understand where you’re coming from. When you make the statement, you know, a lot of times when I interact with people who identify as living a vegan lifestyle, someone who is living a vegan lifestyle, that there’s there seems to be more confrontation than conversation.

Adam Sud: Mm hmm. And I find that to be common. Unfortunately, I find it to be ineffective. And I also find it not to be my experience. You know, I’ll tell you, I told you before we started this call, I never decided to live a plant exclusive vegan lifestyle as a result of someone yelling at me. Mm hmm. I was given the opportunity to discover what was possible through accurate information.

Adam Sud: Right. Someone saying, Hey, guess what? Why don’t you? I mean, I had a unique situation where my my life was kind of on the line. And as a result of of attempting to recover my health at a very extreme situation, I adopted a plant exclusive lifestyle in order to reverse certain sorry, certain chronic disease conditions. Mm hmm. And as a result of witnessing the value that existed for me within that environment, a plant exclusive environment, I decided to then investigate what other impacts are happening as a result of my life, no longer including things that would be requiring animal life in order to sustain things like leather, things like animal entertainment, like rodeos.

Dean Pohlman: Are you are you full like not just an AM also like, okay.

Adam Sud: Yeah, I’m I’m I live a vegan lifestyle and I eat a plant exclusive diet. I think those two are really important to to to differentiate. No food is vegan. People are okay. So a carrot isn’t by nature vegan. A carrot is a healthy food period. Understory. Does it fit into the lifestyle that a person who is vegan would consider part of their lifestyle?

Adam Sud: Yes, it does. But I think in labeling food as vegan food versus non vegan food, that’s where the argument starts having more weight. Hang on a second. Like and then you had the whole idea that vegan by nature means healthy, which is also not accurate. And so what I’d like to get into today is having discussions on what is accurate.

Adam Sud: How do we support people who are curious? Maybe not in looking at I want to eliminate animal products from my life entirely, but I’m kind of curious about cancer. So this conversation about, you know, plant based, there’s plant based out of you know, I’m kind of intrigued here and I don’t want to do it, but I don’t know how.

Adam Sud: Right. So maybe helping someone feel a little bit more confident in how to do that and how to do that. Well.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I think one of my perceptions is that people go into a vegan diet, assuming that if they follow things according to vegan guidelines, that they’re going to be healthier. But you can be very unhealthy eating a vegan diet. A lot of the vegan substitutes, like if you if you if you grab like a vegan substitute meat from like the frozen frozen aisle and you turn it around and you look at the nutritional information, you’re like, oh, wow, This is like, this is this There’s a lot of sodium.

Dean Pohlman: There’s a lot of, you know, unnecessary things in it. And so in the name of being healthy or you’re having something that is actually not healthy and then you like take it, you pick up a piece of steak and you look at I don’t think there’s nutritional info on a piece of steak, but there’s.

Adam Sud: Not there’s no there shouldn’t be that many ingredients in it, but there should be nutrition information. But that’s a great that’s a great place to start. Right. So let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about someone who is in a situation where they’re curious for various reasons. They want to start replacing calories coming from animal products with calories coming from plant products.

Adam Sud: And what would be the accurate way to do that and how would we go about facilitating meeting the needs of that individual nutritionally, either just based on how do I live healthy versus preferred lifestyles, like someone who’s an athlete? Mm hmm. Okay, so number one, if this is something you’re interested in doing, fantastic. You should there should be no concern that if done well, you’re going to be hindering yourself in any aspect of human health outcomes over the course of time.

Adam Sud: However, there’s there’s a there’s an asterisk there if done. Well. Right. So let’s let’s be honest here. Right. Vegan doesn’t mean healthy Oreos are vegan, potato chips are vegan. Technically, they’re vegan foods, if you want to call it that. They fit into a vegan lifestyle. Right. So none of these are going to what I would say, increase the quality of your dietary pattern.

Adam Sud: And that’s really important because what we end up doing when we have these conversations is we try to compare food to food, right? So like beyond meat to a steak, right. And say, oh, well, there you go. So that that I understand the interest in doing that, but that’s not a valuable conversation. MM Well, we want to look at is if we’re going to make a change, we’re not going to change from eating an omnivorous diet to eating just beyond meat.

Adam Sud: So we have to look at the dietary pattern as a whole and how appropriate replacements into that dietary pattern can either insult the quality of it or increase the quality of it, promote the quality of it.

Dean Pohlman: So would you say that those like those substitute things are those more like are those. I guess I’m not trying, and so are those substitute things that I mentioned. Like a substitute means are those just so like if you’re vegan, you want to kind of like fit in with like what everybody else is eating. You’re like, Oh, here’s like a it’s like it’s, you know, it’s not going to be you know, it’s not like a healthy food, but you’re like, okay, this this at least allows me to practice my eating beliefs as well.

Adam Sud: So actually, for if, if you look at the data, the majority of people who purchase beyond meat and possible all those things don’t identify as vegan. So technically these foods are really for people who are trying to offset meat consumption or people who are trying to transition themselves from a meat heavy diet to a more plant predominant diet.

Adam Sud: And so they’re kind of like a they’re like a transitional tool that allows you to feel like you’re having what you had before, while also recognizing and being able to include other things with ease and repeatability. Right? If you go out to a restaurant with your friends and you eat out three or four times a week. Yeah. And this restaurant that you go to, you always get the cheeseburger.

Adam Sud: And now they have a beyond burger and you’re trying to eat less red meat. Mm hmm. That’s a great opportunity for that person who’s curious about that. Now, like I said, is it the optimal choice? No, it isn’t. Okay. The one of the problems that I have with these beyond products and the impossible products, while they taste fantastic, is that in terms of human health outcomes, over time, the presence of saturated fat and the percentage of calories coming from saturated fat is still going to be problematic.

Adam Sud: Is it going to be the most problematic food you can get? No, but that’s not also what we’re looking for. We’re not trying to compare it to the worst. We’re trying to look at it in terms of what is accurate. And so let’s just say a person was like, okay, so what what is accurate here? What if I wanted to build a plant exclusive lifestyle?

Adam Sud: How would I do that in a way that promotes health outcomes over the course of time and allows me to feel really well? The best way to do that is to try to organize your caloric environment, to look like what would be considered and what would be determined as a whole food plant based lifestyle. So what you’re doing is you’re getting your calories from foods in their whole intact or minimally processed state, minimally processed, meaning things like hummus, which is chickpeas that they’ve been they’ve been there’s been a machine processing, not chemically processed machine process.

Adam Sud: So now it’s been pureed is kind of a form of preparation. So that could be considered a minimally processed food, whole grain pastas or a minimally processed food, whole grain breads or a minimally processed food. But the majority of your calories you want coming from the the beans and the greens, the grains, the soy products like tempeh and tofu fruits, starches and non-starchy vegetables, if you can organize your calories to fit into that category, you’re going to do really well most of the time for the majority of people.

Adam Sud: Depending on your preferred lifestyle, you make some alterations on your macros and what percentage of calories are coming from which macronutrient in order to facilitate the needs of someone who’s trying to build muscle or sustain muscle mass. Now that brings up a really big, big topic, right? Which is the protein topic.

Dean Pohlman: Yes. So and just going through everything you just said, most people aren’t like, I’ll be honest, I’m not super knowledgeable about diet. And like, if you ask me to write, like people ask me to write them like a meal plan, I’m like, No, I don’t know how like, I know how to I know how to eat healthy foods, but like, as far as far as, like understanding how many macro macros everyone should be eating, like what breakdown of each different type of food and how many grams of this, how many grams of that.

Dean Pohlman: What I know is I should be aiming for like I know that I should be aiming for like 100 grams of protein a day. That’s what I know.

Adam Sud: That’s exactly accurate. And that’s like Right.

Dean Pohlman: And I know what is. I know what I need to know for my fitness goals. And like, I’m, you know, I think I’m I think my body is where I want it to be in terms of overall fat percentage and the ability to build muscle and feel, you know, like I’m recovering from my workouts and I bring all this up because if I don’t know all of those things, like the average person know, hears, like, I would like to be vegan, let me do it.

Dean Pohlman: And they don’t know all those things know how are they going to be successful with it, Right?

Adam Sud: Really great. That’s a really great question. And there are some phenomenal resources to help you figure out how to organize your calories in order to be successful. There’s websites, plant strong dot com game changers dot com. Forks over knives these are going to give you recipes that that for the majority of people these are the kinds of arrangement of calories they’re going to do really well for you.

Adam Sud: But let’s actually talk about that let’s let’s talk about for example.

Dean Pohlman: Interrupted you on the protein thing because that was my questions. I’m like, wow, yeah. Everyone says they’re like, but how do you get rid of protein, right? Yeah.

Adam Sud: So that’s a really great question. And I want to be incredibly honest and accurate here because I think it is valuable to be honest rather than just say, Oh, you never have to worry about protein, don’t worry about it. And that’s the common thing you’re going to hear is you’ll never Yeah, so this is a thing and this kind of irks me a little bit.

Adam Sud: This irks me a little bit when we talk about the protein topic. What most vegans are going to say is, well, protein is in every food. Yeah, I know, we know that. Okay. And if you didn’t know that now you do. All plants contain protein and actually all plants are complete proteins. So what is a complete protein? A complete protein is a protein that contains all nine essential amino acids.

Adam Sud: And an essential amino amino acid means it is an amino acid that your body cannot produce on its own. So it is essential that you get it from your diet. Okay, so there are nine essential amino acids, and then you have additional amino acids that your body can synthesize on its own. So in order to consume a complete amino acid profile, the food that you eat need to have all nine essential amino acids in order to be considered a complete protein.

Adam Sud: All plants contain all nine essential amino acids. Here’s the kicker, though. This is interesting. This is important. Where you start to see some debate is that a lot of the plant foods are limited in specific amino acids within those nine essentials. So in order to get your RDA of all nine essential amino acids, you would have to eat a variety of plants.

Adam Sud: Well, guess what? No one’s just eating oats. This is kind of like the straw man argument, the kind of, you know, deflection is like, well, you know, oats, if you look at oats there, they don’t have enough. Or if you look at whatever, they don’t have enough of a specific one of the essential amino acids. Even if you ate all your calories you wouldn’t get the RDA of that.

Adam Sud: Yeah, but when you, when you eat a complete diet, you do end up getting everything you need. So, God, I just want to say yes, it’s true that some plant protein, some plant foods are not as rich in all nine amino acids. However, they all do contain all nine amino acids. Very easy to make sure that you just have to eat a very diet, which is what most of us do.

Adam Sud: We’re not just sitting down and eating brown rice, we’re eating brown rice and black beans and oats for breakfast and greens and potatoes and all these kinds of things. The second thing is when we talk about protein, it’s important to know, okay, if I’m an athlete, what is the appropriate amount to get? What is the appropriate amount to get?

Adam Sud: And the research has been really clear on this that in order to optimize hypertrophy, which is a new muscle synthesis and strength adaptation for athletes, the optimal target is between 1.2 and 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of lean bodyweight. The interesting thing about this is when they studied protein intake on these factors like hypertrophy and muscle strength or strength adaptation, they found that getting more than 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight does no added benefit.

Adam Sud: So while yes, it’s important to get enough protein, getting as much as you can doesn’t really benefit you. Okay.

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Adam Sud: There was a study that came out in 2021 by a researcher named Victoria Lorraine, and it was published in the Journal of Sports Medicine. And this was a study to look at protein matched vegan diets versus omnivorous diets, specifically on resistance training, adaptations, hypertrophy and strength. Okay, This is really so what they did was they took healthy men.

Adam Sud: One group was a plant exclusive group. The other group was an omnivore group. They matched protein intake to 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. So each person was getting the optimal amount of protein intake based on their size, and then they put them through a training period where they were looking at increases in leg strength.

Adam Sud: Okay. Started looking at two things increases in muscle mass within the legs and increases in muscle output. So how much stronger were the legs and how much more size was added when they after the study, when they looked at the comparisons, they found that there was no statistically significant difference between the two groups, that whether you got your calories from plants and animals or whether you got them from just plants, as long as you’re hitting that target of 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, it didn’t matter.

Adam Sud: It didn’t matter where the protein came from. Now, that is specifically on an outcome like strength, adaptation and hypertrophy. But for athletes, that’s really important because so much of us still believe in order to really benefit from our exercises, we should be including things like meat and dairy, when in fact the research is really clear that there was another study that was published in 2020 that looked at protein intake across the board, all sources of plant protein versus all sources of animal protein.

Adam Sud: And again, what they found was that in terms of hypertrophy in regard to muscle adaptation, as long as you were getting between one point to 1.6, it didn’t matter where the protein was coming from, it didn’t matter. So that’s really important for that person who’s like, Oh, but I’m an athlete, I’m an athlete. I don’t know what I have to know.

Adam Sud: You don’t. In fact, there’s no downside to replacing any amount of protein coming from animals with any amount of protein coming from plants. In regards to your performance. That’s important. That’s really important because that’s a barrier of entry that we used to say was really high. Well, now we’ve kind of lowered it with research, and I think that’s valuable.

Adam Sud: So in terms of getting enough protein, does it require a little bit more planning and a little bit more strategy with a plant based diet than it does an animal based? Of course it does. How could it not? But does because but just because it requires a little bit more. Planning and strategy doesn’t make it hard. No, that’s a really important factor.

Adam Sud: So I get between 130 and 170 grams of protein per day. But when I consume anywhere between 2020 500 calories. So I do start my day with a protein powder supplement. So I add protein powder to my smoothie in the morning. And that’s about the only time I’m going to use protein powder, Everything else is coming from protein rich foods like lentils, tofu, Tempe, Saturn, and even things like edamame pasta, which is, oh my gosh, if you’ve never had a man made pasta, it is remarkably good.

Adam Sud: And I mean, the macro split on this thing is about 180 calories per serving with 27 grams of protein for every 180 calories. That is fantastic. Yeah, that’s I mean, that is a goldmine of opportunity. Plus, he’s got 14 grams of fiber, which is just the average American is so deficient in fiber, the RDA is asking people get around 25 to 30 grams, 35 grams of fiber per day.

Adam Sud: The average American is getting between five and ten. And that is why we have a laxative industry that is about a 2 to $3 billion industry a year that is completely unnecessary. So when we talk about protein, you don’t have to worry, you don’t have to worry about losing performance, you don’t have to worry about not being able to get enough.

Adam Sud: You can easily do it and there are amazing resources. I highly recommend the game Changers dot com website. The Game Changers Institute is specifically designed to look at the cross-section between professional athletes and plant based diets. Okay, so that is the place to go if you’re if you’re inclined to be like, Hey, I’m an athlete, I want to know about this protein thing, I’m going to go to Game Changer XCOM and look at the Game Changers Institute.

Adam Sud: The the chief scientific adviser is a guy named David Goldman. He’s about the smartest human I’ve ever met in my life. He is remarkably brilliant and he is a sports scientist. So highly, highly, highly recommend that website. Now, when it comes to other things, one of the biggest misconceptions is the presence of carbohydrate energy in a plant based diet, because by nature, a plant based diet is going to be a higher carbohydrate diet simply because of the presence of plants.

Adam Sud: And plants are the primary source of carbohydrate energy. So people are like, Wait a minute, hang on, hang on a second. Yeah, I don’t want to gain weight. I mean, what am I going to do all this, all these carbs? I mean, so to be fair, I eat between three and 400 grams of carbohydrates a day, if you like.

Dean Pohlman: And if you are and if and generally speaking, if you’re trying to either lose weight or to maintain and you don’t have an athletic lifestyle where you’re you know, where you need a ton of carbs, how many carbs should you be having per day? Sure. This is what’s general. Yeah. So we’re on a vegan diet. What? What?

Adam Sud: Yeah. So this is a this is a great question. And I really love talking about this because this is really where the majority of the misinformation exists, that carbohydrate energy is, by nature a greater promoter of weight gain than any other macronutrient. That is the general consensus that people in the who are who are not, who are uninformed about nutrition generally tend to believe that carbohydrate energy by nature promotes weight gain.

Adam Sud: It’s just fundamentally untrue. So carbohydrate energy is simply a macronutrient meaning. It’s a nutrient that contains calories and therefore calories per gram of carbohydrate, just like there’s four calories per gram of protein and there’s nine calories per gram of dietary fat. But when we look at weight gain and weight loss studies, when we look at studies that include a greater percentage of calories coming from whole intact carbohydrate rich foods, you see that as the presence of these foods increases in the dietary pattern.

Adam Sud: In fact, weight gain is easier, more easily achieved. And I’m going to talk about this from the standpoint of something called calorie density. If you ever heard of this term, calorie density.

Dean Pohlman: I have.

Adam Sud: Yeah.

Dean Pohlman: So calorie I don’t know what it means, but I know it exists.

Adam Sud: So calorie density is a really interesting topic and it’s an incredibly useful one to understand If you’re looking at weight loss as a primary outcome for your efforts with nutrition. So calorie density is a term used to explain the amount of calories present in a specific weight of a specific food. And that expression is usually said as calories per pound.

Adam Sud: So what they’re talking about is how many calories are in a pound of any specific food. There’s a whole calorie density chart that you can look at. And there was about 50 studies done out of Penn State alone under a researcher named Dr. Barbara Rolls. She did all the foundational work on calorie density, and she wrote a book called Volume Metrics.

Adam Sud: And so when you combine the science of calorie density and volume metrics, you get to a real understanding of how you actually achieve weight loss with ease. Number one, one of the most remarkable studies that she did was she just went and she observed people. She went and watched them. She asked them to change their diet. She put them on a specific diet.

Adam Sud: And people were eating all kinds of diets. And what she discovered was that regardless of your diet, the average person eats between three and £5 of food per day. That’s what we do. Your body doesn’t count calories. It’s not actually designed to count calories. Your body is designed by nature. Throughout the course of our evolutionary story to understand that a specific weight of food is equal to enough energy to stay alive.

Adam Sud: Okay, So when we understand that by nature, humans are driven to eat about £4 of food per day, we can apply calorie density science to that understanding in order to design a diet that allows us to eat to satiety and either consume in a calorie deficit or in a caloric surplus, depending on our goals. So let’s look at some of the most high calorie sorry, high carbohydrate rich foods that everyone says when you eat them, it causes you to gain weight.

Adam Sud: And let’s see what’s actually accurate. Let’s start with the granddaddy of them all the potato. All right. So the potato is probably unanimously considered by the average person out there, weight gain central. Oh, I can’t have those potatoes. They make you gain weight. It’s all sugar, It’s all starch. And starch causes weight gain. Well, let’s look at what’s accurate and let’s look at the data.

Adam Sud: Number one, the calorie density of a potato is 390. What that means is if you ate a pound of cooked potatoes, you would consume 390 calories. It’s quite a low calorie dense food. And in the calorie density scale, the lowest calorie dense foods happen to be low fat plant foods. So grains, beans, grains, fruits, starches, non-starchy vegetables, they go from anywhere from 60 calories per pound to 600 calories per pound.

Adam Sud: So if we’re looking at potatoes and if I was to say to you, hey, I bet you that if you went out and ate to satiety of only potatoes, you would likely end the day in a caloric deficit. Let’s look at the data here. If the average person consumes about £4 of food per day and the eight only potatoes, which is about 400 calories per pound, the average person would consume 1600 calories, which puts them in a calorie deficit.

Adam Sud: The reality is potatoes are some of the best weight loss foods in existence. What happens is people start putting on top of those potatoes, things like sour cream stuff. Exactly.

Dean Pohlman: Calories.

Adam Sud: Things that actually have a calorie density of between one and 4000 calories per pound. When you’re in that calorie density range, there’s no way to moderate. There’s no way to portion control. And let me explain to you how this works. Let’s take a food like cooked oats, cooked oats are 300 calories per pound. I love oatmeal. I eat it every morning.

Adam Sud: Now it’s like oat bread. Oat bread is 1300 calories per pound because the water has been removed. Okay. Now you’re probably saying to yourself, Adam, I don’t know anyone eating a pound of oat bread. Why does this matter? It matters for a very specific reason. And the reason for this is no matter how much oats you eat in, no matter how much oat bread you eat, it will always be nearly five times easier to consume more calories than you planned on If your diet contains more oat bread and more whole oats, does that makes sense?

Adam Sud: If you’re eating foods like beans which are 450 calories per pound and your item in their whole intact state and you put oil on it, which is 4200 calories per pound, no matter how much oil you eat, it will always be ten times easier for you to consume additional calories than you want to if your beans contain oil in them and if they were just cooked in water.

Adam Sud: This is really important to understand that it isn’t a specific food itself, but the calorie density of your total dietary pattern, the average calorie density of your total dietary pattern that will influence weight loss or weight gain, the biggest influence of weight loss and weight gain is calorie deficit or calorie surplus. In fact, when we look at studies that trace adipose fat so fat storing your adipose tissue and we trace the origin of those, what we have discovered is that less than 2% of your stored body fat originated from carbohydrate energy.

Adam Sud: So carbohydrate energy can be converted to fat to a process called de novo lipo genesis. That is a conversion of carbohydrate energy to fat in the liver. Then it’s excreted out. So it can happen, but only in a caloric excess. 98% of your body’s stored fat originated from fat energy. Okay. However, whether eating a high fat diet or a low fat diet, what is going to make you store that fat is simply being in a calorie surplus.

Adam Sud: So there isn’t a single food that by nature or macronutrient that by nature causes weight gain. The quality of your dietary pattern and the calorie density of your dietary pattern is the influence here. Does that make sense?

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So what I’m hearing is that if if you were just to eat the plants that we’re talking about, if you were just to eat potatoes, if you were just to eat, I don’t know, lentils, let’s say some other if you were just to eat those then.

Adam Sud: And your energy balance was what it was. Right. Right. If you were eating for your energy balance, meaning that you knew at the end of the day you were in a calorie deficit or in a calorie surplus. If you’re trying to gain weight, you will either gain weight or lose weight. It has nothing to do with the source of the food.

Adam Sud: However, the health outcomes with.

Dean Pohlman: The problem is the problem is when when you’re adding the sweeteners, the sauces, the oils. That’s the issue.

Adam Sud: That is the issue because those are very hard to manage because they’re so calorie rich. Can you have them? Sure. The problem is most people are having them for every meal every day. I’m not saying ketchup causes weight gain, but if you’re slathering ketchup on your food, if you’re slathering butter on your food, if you’re slathering, you know, oil on your food at every meal for everything you eat, you’re going to find it very difficult to get into a calorie deficit.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm.

Adam Sud: Those foods are just too calorie rich. That’s the problem. They’re not inherently evil. They’re just very calorie rich foods. And that’s why they promote weight gain. It’s not because of how much carbohydrate or how much fat they have, it’s how much calories they have.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. And the more you use them, the harder it uses, the harder it becomes to not use them because you’re desensitizing your tastebuds.

Adam Sud: That’s exactly right. You’re desensitizing your dopamine pathways for whichever specific macronutrient is incredibly rich in that food. Right. So what happens and we talked about this in the last call is that when you hit your dopamine pathways with a supernormal stimulus, a stimulus like hyper concentrations of salt, hyper concentrations of fat, hyper concentrations of sugar, those dopamine pathways, those receptors defend themselves against that intense stimulus and they dull their receptor, their receptor ability so that you never really experience that pleasure.

Adam Sud: Unlike a supernormal dopamine lift, it will calibrate it down into what is an acceptable, normal range for the human experience. So at that point, in order to feel what feels like the appropriate amount of pleasure from food, you have to continue eating those foods. You’re going to feel bland.

Dean Pohlman: So then my question is, how do you make things taste? You know, so and so I you know, I kind of if you look at I’ll just say this, if you look at the back as you look at the nutritional information of spices, there’s nothing in them. If you look at this, right, If you look at paprika, if you look at your.

Dean Pohlman: Absolutely right. These are all things that taste awesome if you know how to use them. But they don’t have.

Adam Sud: They don’t have they have no calories. They don’t have any calories. And there’s no.

Dean Pohlman: Benefits that come from certain spices that has.

Adam Sud: The most antioxidant rich sources on the planet are spices. Spices are incredibly valuable to your dietary pattern. And so spices and seasonings, that’s how you change the the culinary experience or whatever, eating.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, that was my question is how do you make it taste good? Like, how do you know what I’m eating? What’s going to land potato four times a day?

Adam Sud: Right? And to be fair, no one wants it. Just plain chicken either you’re going to season that thing, right? You’re going to season it. You’re going to make it taste different. Sometimes you’re going to have a Tex-Mex blend of spices. Some days you might have an Asian blend of spices. So that’s why it’s the same food. It has a different culinary experience that’s exciting.

Adam Sud: And so really what you’re doing, you’re just trying to change your perception of what it is to eat a meal, a lot of people believe that if meat isn’t on the plate, then it isn’t a meal. So I understand the difficulty to come to what looks like a plate of sides and see that and see that as a meal.

Adam Sud: But that’s really the biggest hurdle.

Dean Pohlman: That’s when you do hear from people is is people who have you know, who have tried doing a vegan diet or people have done both is, yeah, like I’m not having meat. And it’s weird. Like I don’t finish a meal feeling full. Yeah. Anymore.

Adam Sud: And that is twofold. Number one, by nature, your meals might in the beginning because you haven’t figured out how to appropriately strategize around protein rich foods might feel less satiating because of the lower presence of protein. Protein is a satiating macronutrient as well as a lower fat diet. So fat is actually a very satiating macronutrient because fat takes a lot more stomach acid to break down.

Adam Sud: So you have a filling experience as your stomach fills with more stomach acid in order to break it down and it lasts longer. Your Stomach takes a little bit longer to empty fat rich foods into your bloodstream than it does, say, carbohydrate rich foods or protein rich foods. And so there’s not only that you feel fuller, but you might feel fuller longer.

Adam Sud: And so that is number one reason why diets like the ketogenic diet, people go hungry. Like I never feel hungry, like I eat. I’m just good. And that’s that’s simply because of the presence of saturated fat and fat rich calories that that that mechanism is taking place.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm. Yeah. Got it. You were saying something before, and I got. I got excited about whatever I was asking you about just now. What were you. What were you saying before? Right. Yeah, I was. You are?

Adam Sud: Yeah. So, you know, what we were talking about was just learning how to experience the. The change in the in the composition of your plate. Yeah, right. That, that now you’ve switched from something that had a very it’s been culturally part of your experience, it’s been socially part of your experience. It’s been historically part of your experience or that’s what food looks like.

Adam Sud: And if it doesn’t have it, then the meal ain’t over. And so there is a level, a level of adjustment that has to occur. And so understanding really why you’re trying to do this and why it’s important for you to do this is going to be a big factor in sustainability, right? Why does it matter that you get to a point where it doesn’t feel hard anymore?

Adam Sud: What is so darn important that this effort, this potentially extraordinary effort, is worth it to you and identifying that that reason is going to be very valuable for anyone trying to make any significant change in their life. Right. Whether it’s quitting smoking or whether it’s, you know, changing to eating plants or whether it’s, you know, drinking less alcohol, all these things are going to feel like extraordinary efforts.

Adam Sud: And if you don’t have a reason that’s rooted in your effort, there’s not a why that’s there that’s important you and meaningful and rooted in some valuable outcome over time. You’re likely to just you know, we don’t mind being martyrs for ourselves, you know? Well, whatever I was doing next year, who cares? But you would likely route this, you know, if you saw your friend doing it.

Adam Sud: And they were like, I don’t think I’m going to do it anymore. You’ll likely cheer them on. You’re like, Oh, come on, man, You got this. But we we typically, you know, kind of give ourselves we don’t give ourselves the same amount of of support that we would give our best friend, which I think is is one of the biggest things I ask people when I work with is we’re going to learn how to be like teammates for ourselves.

Adam Sud: We’re going to we’re going to start to talk to ourselves as if we were watching our best friend go through this. Yeah, and we’re never going to talk ourselves the way that we have been, which is like, Oh, well, I just must be lazy as shit because I can’t do it. And that person over there did it and therefore they must be different than me.

Adam Sud: They’re not different than you, you know, you got to start saying, Hey, no, no, no. I mean, I know it’s hard, but you got this. Like, this is like you’ve made it five days already or you made it five months already, or you made it, you know, ten months already. Like, that’s fantastic. You got this. Just go one more day.

Adam Sud: Like, exactly as you would talk to your best friend. That’s how you’re going to start to embody that inner voice of yourself.

Dean Pohlman: Gotcha. Yeah, we talked about that. How people we talked about that in our last episode, how people can’t conceptualize long term. And if we break something down into like a 20 day goal, then like, okay, four weeks, I can do four weeks. I want to get my star chart. I almost want to get hold on. I’m I get this.

Adam Sud: Yeah, like I know you could.

Dean Pohlman: Yes, but I keep these star charts. I have I’ve had these since I moved and I am not like a I’m not like a pack rat at all. So if I don’t need something, I throw it away.

Adam Sud: That is amazing.

Dean Pohlman: I’m going to use these Stark. These are like the same star charts. If you don’t have the video version right now. Basically, I’m showing those star charts that you see in kindergarten classes where you get like a star if you showed up to class that day. Yeah, I have those because they’re actually remarkable for accountability. And I’m like, Yeah, I’m just trying to figure out what my next thing to hold myself accountable to doing is.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah.

Adam Sud: Anyway, I know. All right, Last from last last time we talked, you brought up the topic of something that was said in a movie called what the Health. And Oh, yeah, and I really want to touch on this topic because it’s something that I, I actually am expert in, which is insulin sensitivity and insulin resistance. And so I really want to talk about this.

Adam Sud: And so I’ll let you kind of bring it up here.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So that was one other thing that we discussed. Like there’s a lot of you know, you’ve come at this conversation. Let’s talk about like the facts behind. Yes. What happens when you’re eating a vegan diet. And a lot of the a lot of the made a lot of the more common promoters, champions of of a vegan diet come at this more from the perspective of you’re killing the environment if you don’t adopt a vegan diet, if you don’t have a vegan diet, you have what’s called the standard American diet and you’re incredibly unhealthy and meat is unhealthy by nature and you shouldn’t eat meat.

Dean Pohlman: And you know, a lot of these very a lot of these, you know, we’re living on Netflix for most of our. Yeah. And we’re living on these video streamers for most of our consumption. And whenever one of these new vegan type propaganda, I mean vegan informational videos are released. Yeah they’re you know, they get tons everyone watches them.

Dean Pohlman: They’re like, you’re like, oh, number two and movies today are number two, and documentaries today are number one and documentaries today. And I kind of live in a social media world where I see both the people who are promoting them as well as the people who are like looking at these movies and picking them apart and saying like, that’s not accurate.

Dean Pohlman: So. So yeah, that’s I think that’s, you know, and you talked about it too, but like, you never know. One’s going to change the way that they’re behaving or get inspired to change the way we’re behaving when they just feel bad about it. I mean, they could be like, that’s not the best way to do it. So yeah, anyway, so there’s no question attached to that.

Dean Pohlman: Just, just general. Yes.

Adam Sud: When it comes to films like what the health I completely appreciate the, the the reason why people feel so compelled to make films like this because they want to help. They want to be helpful. Yeah. They found a lifestyle that has shown incredible benefit, and for the majority of people it is quite beneficial if you’re a person who’s so compelled to adopt a a healthy dietary pattern within a plant exclusive life.

Adam Sud: So you’re going to do really well. You are. Are you are you bulletproof from life? Absolutely not. So let’s let’s get that out of the way. It’s not a perfect diet. There isn’t one. Okay? We live in a toxic world. We live in a toxic food environment. We live in a toxic soil environment. We live in a toxic air environment.

Adam Sud: Okay? There’s no perfect diet anymore. Okay. But some nights do better than others in the long term. Now, some the things that I completely understand. I also understand the reason why some will come up to you and say, Oh, you’re you’re part of the problem. You’re killing the animals. Don’t you see how much damage you’re doing, the environment and all this stuff?

Adam Sud: And you know, I get it, I witness it, I’ve, I’ve been on the the, the at the front of slaughterhouses when the trucks with the six month old pigs come in on those, you know, they’ve been on those trucks for 70 hours in a 110 degree weather so some of them are already dead and some of are literally having heart attacks and heat stroke attacks right in front of you.

Adam Sud: And and it’s a it’s an offset. You don’t want it to happen. You don’t want it to happen. You want it to stop and you feel compelled to stop it yourself. But what I think is really important and my brother is is an incredibly influential vegan activist. In fact, she’s the organizer for LA Animal Save, which is where those pigs come in on the trucks.

Adam Sud: He works with people like Joaquin Phenix. She works with people like Moby. He’s he’s a very established photographer. And this is a guy who has spent a thousand plus hours documenting slaughterhouse footage through hidden camera and not hidden camera. He’s been given permission to go in and film it. Sometimes I love what my brother says. He’ll tell you this If your activism is about yelling at people, then your activism is a catharsis for your anger.

Adam Sud: And it is about what what that person may or may not be doing, rather than having be solely about the animal’s disruption based activism is a catharsis for anger fueled by hatred. Because you hate what’s happening so much that you get angry at those that you think are the ones doing it. Love based activism is activism that is rooted in caring for the animals.

Adam Sud: My energy is directed solely at the animals. He does things where they don’t go in and yell at people. They go in and they give water to the pigs on these trucks before they’re taking it to the slaughterhouse to be killed. And people have literally come up to and said and they said, you know, do you really think that this is going to change anybody’s mind?

Adam Sud: I don’t know. Maybe. But even if it didn’t, I’m going to do it because I feel it’s the right to do period in history. That’s why I do it. If it changes someone’s mind, great. If it doesn’t, I don’t care. I want to be of service to the animals. I’m not here to yell at people. It doesn’t change anyone’s mind.

Adam Sud: So I do understand where people are coming from. I think I understand the reason why they feel so passionate about wanting it to stop. And so they see someone at a restaurant who ordered a burger and they go, Oh, you’re you’re you’re the problem. So I got to be angry at you. But it’s not a very valuable way to do it.

Adam Sud: And the other thing I find to be somewhat problematic about some of these messaging is the belief that meat in any amount at any time is going to cause it’s always going to be the problem. It is equal to a processed food diet. It is it is terrible. And they say things like meat causes diabetes. I this was a big topic of discussion that came out of the film what the health and I’m a fan of what the hell I know a lot of the people that documented it but that’s also not an accurate statement.

Adam Sud: It’s not an accurate statement. Does the reduction of meat typically improve diabetes outcomes? Yes, but for a very specific reason. And I want to explain to you, if you’re if you if you’re okay with it, what is the biochemistry that causes insulin resistance.

Dean Pohlman: As long as you dumb it down for me?

Adam Sud: Yes. What is the biochemistry that causes insulin resistance? And why is it that when people do remove meat, do they see insulin sensitivity increase and why then they think, oh, meat then causes diabetes. So if you were to go outside right now and grab a hold of somebody or don’t grab them, just type them on the shoulder.

Dean Pohlman: Now people.

Adam Sud: Don’t cry. People say, Hey, hey, excuse me, have you ever heard of insulin resistance? They’re likely going to say yes. It’s a very big topic right now. It’s very buzz, buzz worthy conversation in the wellness space. You go, okay, great. What causes it? You’re likely going to hear one of or more than or maybe all of these three answers.

Adam Sud: You’re going to hear the words sugar, carbs or insulin, too much sugar, too much carbs or too much insulin that these are what causes insulin resistance. And I can understand why that seems like the correct answer when in fact it’s not accurate. So let’s talk about what is accurate when you consume food. Fat in food is a triglyceride and a triglyceride is a glycerol backbone with one, two, three fatty acids attached to it.

Adam Sud: Okay. When this is digested in the digestive process, the glycerol backbone is broken off and then the fatty acids are free to absorb into the bloodstream in a diet that is rich in fat and saturated fat, you have a large amount of fatty acids entering the bloodstream. When energy enters the bloodstream, A biological process called the Randall cycle takes place, and the Randall cycle simply describes the competition for energy uptake, meaning the competition for energy to go into cellular tissue like carbohydrate and protein energy require insulin in order to be delivered to cellular tissue, fat energy doesn’t Does insulin deliver fat?

Adam Sud: Yes, but it doesn’t require insulin. There’s a particle called a this is the most complex term I’m going to use. I promise a kilo micron particle is kilo. Micron particles enter the bloodstream in the presence of fat energy and they grab a hold of fatty acids and they start distributing them to tissues all over the body. Your tissues get first dibs.

Adam Sud: Fat energy gets there. First period, end of story. Every single time. So let’s talk about your muscle cells. In your muscle cells, you have two forms of energy storage. You have carbohydrate energy stored in the form of glycogen, and you have fat energy stored in the form of something called a lipid droplet. And as in the presence of a high fat diet.

Adam Sud: And as these kilo microns deliver these fatty acids into the tissue uncontrolled, remember, they don’t have to communicate with the cell kilo microns can deliver fat uncontrolled. This lipid droplet just grows larger and larger and larger and larger and larger over the course of time. Mm hmm. At a certain point in time, there’s now just too much energy inside of the cell.

Adam Sud: Fat energy lasts a very long time. So, for example, let’s just describe it this way. Your glycogen is your body’s checking account. It seems carbohydrate energy comes in, must use it immediately. Fat energy is your savings account. It wants to use it only in the event in the event that there’s a calorie deficit or that there’s no energy in the environment.

Adam Sud: So in a fasting state. Okay, so fat energy can typically last you a full a lipid drop. It can last 40 days, a glycogen source unless you 3 hours. That’s the difference. So this lipid droplet has grown uncontrolled over the course of time, is continually being replenished and now there’s too much energy inside of the cell. Now there’s a problem.

Adam Sud: There’s no room for new energy uptake, no new energy can get into the cell. So molecules inside of the cell called insulin receptor substrate molecules or yes, the air s, the IRS says, hang on a second, we are your cells accountants, and we are accounting for the energy that’s in here. What kind of energy it is and how it is, how is it being used.

Adam Sud: And we notice there is a problem. We have too much energy in here. We have an energy problem. If we allow more energy in, we’re going to start experiencing something called energy poisoning. It’s actually a damaging experience to the cells. And so what we’re going to do is we’re going to walk to the outside of the cell where your insulin receptors sit, and we’re going to instruct those insulin receptors to reject the action of insulin, because what they’re trying to do is prevent any new energy uptake, insulin as your body’s most powerful energy transport hormone.

Adam Sud: Period. End of story. Nothing moves our energy more than insulin. So your insulin receptors have been instructed that if insulin comes around wanting to deliver energy, they need to tell them that they’re closed for business and go somewhere else. Okay, so now this person consumes something rich in carbohydrate energy, like a banana, black beans, sweet potato, something really healthy, but rich in carbohydrate energy, glucose enters the bloodstream.

Adam Sud: The beta cells of your pancreas sends this fluctuation blood glucose levels. They release insulin, insulin grabs a hold of a glucose molecule, walks up to the cell of your muscles, knocks on the door and says, Hey, knock, knock, insulin receptors, I’ve got glucose here. I know it’s your preferred energy source. Do you want to take it up and use it as energy?

Adam Sud: This is when the insulin receptor literally says, Hey, listen, man, I know you can see what’s going on in here, so I’m going to give you a little peek. Do you see the size of that lipid droplet? Do you see how much energy is in the cell? You realize we have no room for you. I have been instructed that I have to tell you that we are closed for business.

Adam Sud: I cannot talk to you only to say go somewhere else. And so in fact, insulin tries for the next 3 hours to deliver this glucose. But insulin resistance is not a site specific problem. It’s a systemic problem. So it’s meeting the same issue with every cellular tissue, liver cells, kidney cells. So after three and a half hours, the instant hormone dies and the glucose is left in the blood.

Adam Sud: And over the course of time that glucose level rises higher and higher and a person is diagnosed with either prediabetes or type two diabetes. And every time they eat carbohydrate energy, their blood glucose, glucose goes to the roof and they go, Oh my gosh, I’ve got to stop eating all this carbohydrate. That’s the problem. The problem isn’t, why is my blood glucose high?

Adam Sud: The problem is why can my body no longer tolerate carbohydrate energy? What series of events and mechanisms have led my body to a state where carbohydrate can no longer be metabolized in a healthy and effective manner? The number one cause for this is twofold. Too much fat and too much calories. That’s it. Now, why does it look like when you remove meat from your diet?

Adam Sud: Sorry? When you remove meat from your diet that you solve this problem? Number one, most meat is actually a little bit high in calories, especially fatty meats. There’s between seven and a thousand calories per pound. So when people replace the calories coming from meat or, say, beans, they end up losing weight and use calories. Number two, meats are also somewhat high in fat.

Adam Sud: And specifically saturated fat beans have 4% fat, chicken might have 30% fat. So when you replace chicken with beans, you’re also reducing your saturated fat intake, which also restores insulin sensitivity by allowing your body to shrink that lipid droplet. So it looks like the solution is the complete removal of meat. It’s not the complete removal of meat, it’s the reduction of saturated fat.

Adam Sud: Got it. Now, that’s easily done with a meat with a, you know, a plant exclusive diet, but also easily done in a in a plant predominant. Now you don’t have to not eat meat.

Dean Pohlman: So it’s just it’s just a coincidence. Like meat just happens to have these macronutrients that exactly said okay.

Adam Sud: And so would a person do better reducing their consumption of meat, especially fatty meats, if if they notice that, hey, I got my A1 c back elevated I want to restore it to its its proper place of less than 5.7%. Does that does the replacement of low fat protein rich plants replacing meat do really well in that effort?

Adam Sud: Yes, it does. But that doesn’t mean you have to remove meat entirely. You just have to make specific, accurate and appropriate adjustments, that’s all. Okay.

Dean Pohlman: So excuse me. So I want to get back to what happens. Okay. So insulin, your insulin resistance is high. Your cells, there’s no room in your cells for more energy. What happens to that excess energy?

Adam Sud: Yeah, so this is a great question. So in an insulin resistance state, there’s going to be two methods in which you’re going to try to reverse this situation. And the common one is you’re going to go to the doctor, they’re going to diagnose you with with type two diabetes, maybe.

Dean Pohlman: What does your body naturally do or how are you answering that?

Adam Sud: I’m answering that, Yeah. Oh, you’re okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so what they’re going to do is going to say, Hey, listen, I want you to eat this banana in front of me and let’s check your blood glucose over the next 2 hours. And you do that and an insulin resistance rate, your blood glucose is going to go very, very high.

Adam Sud: It is what’s going to happen because your your blood glucose levels are like a smoke signal saying, hey, there’s a problem inside of our cells. And then after that and after 2 hours and your blood glucose comes back down, they’re going to give you a piece of chicken and say, eat this, your blood glucose isn’t going to move.

Adam Sud: It’s not. There’s very little carbohydrate in meat, if any at all. There might be small amounts stored in the tissue, but very small amounts. They go, That’s your solution. I just showed you the carbohydrate. Energy is causing the problem. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to do something called the carbohydrate avoidance game. This is a low carbohydrate dietary pattern.

Adam Sud: And what’s going to happen when this person does this is actually their blood glucose is going to come down and they’re A1 c is going to come down. It’s going to look like they’ve solved the problem. But what happens when you remove the calories coming from carbohydrate energy and you need to add calories back to get the number of calories you need in order to sustain your diet.

Adam Sud: You have to now get them from calories coming from either protein and fat or just fat. Right. Because unless you’re doing just adding egg whites, it’s gonna be very hard for you to get it from just protein. So it’s going to be your protein and fat or just fat if you eat like nuts and seeds and stuff, which are smaller in protein but mostly fat.

Adam Sud: So by reducing your carbohydrate, now increasing the fat beyond what you were doing before, as you’re keeping those lipid droplet stores very, very rich, very saturated, and you’re going to notice that you can’t tolerate carbohydrate energy only in the event that you ever eat something rich and carbohydrate energy, you’re going to bite into a banana. Your blood glucose is going to go through the roof.

Adam Sud: You go, Wow, man, that’s proof right there. I just show myself again, carbohydrate energy is a problem. I can never eat carbs again. This is the common situation that you see play out. People avoid carbohydrate, and by doing so, by not having glucose entering their blood, they lower their blood glucose levels, they lower their agency. But they’re not restoring insulin action.

Adam Sud: They’re not restoring insulin sensitivity. So what is the most effective way to do that? The most effective way to do that is actually to reduce your total fat consumption to less than 25% of your calories per day coming from fat from all foods combined. When you do this and in a slight calorie deficit, most people who are insulin resistant are going to be slightly overweight as well.

Adam Sud: When you do this, you have very little fat fatty acids entering your cellular tissue. Those cells are closed off to insulin action. Remember, they’re still shut off your SO insulin resistance. So the only energy in that cell that the body can use is the large lipid droplet. So the mitochondria, which are the energy burning factories of the cell, start shrinking that lipid, drop it because now they’re burning more of it than is being replenished.

Adam Sud: And this lipid droplet is shrinking and shrinking over the course of time. So you get to a point where you’re actually going to run out of energy If those iris molecules don’t turn back on the inside receptors and restore insulin action to bring in new energy, you’re going to run out of energy and they’re not going to let that happen.

Adam Sud: So at a certain point in time, you’re in some receptors come back on and now carbohydrate energy can get back into the cell and replenish that glycogen store. So what this shows is what we’re trying to do is not simply achieve a low agency. Yes, achieving a low agency was an interesting thing to do, but you have to show that you can not only achieve a low agency.

Dean Pohlman: What is it that you want to see, by the way? Yeah, yeah, great. But I we said that.

Adam Sud: So an agency is a biomarker that we use to determine someone’s insulin resistance state, whether they’re diabetic or pre-diabetic. It’s usually expressed in percentages. And what it is is essentially letting us know what the average blood glucose of that individual has been over a 3 to 4 month period. And so actually actually explaining why it’s in percentages. So take a deep breath for me.

Adam Sud: Go ahead. What’s happening right now is oxygen molecules are attaching themselves to hemoglobin molecules, and your hemoglobin molecules are delivering oxygen to tissue. All their body is a very valuable thing. Your hemoglobin is also a transport molecule for certain nutrients like oxygen. The reason why A1 C is written in percentages is, let’s say healthy A1. See is anything less than 5.6 prediabetic is 5.7 to 6.4 and type two diabetic is above 6.4%.

Adam Sud: The reason why it’s written in percentages is because that is the number of hemoglobin molecules out of 100. I’m sorry. Yeah. Hemoglobin molecules out of 100 that now has glucose attached to it. So if your agency is 7%, seven out of every 100 hemoglobin molecules now has glucose attached to it the time that is a problem. That is a problem because you have displaced the opportunity for hemoglobin molecules to deliver valuable things to other tissues.

Adam Sud: And this can be a disease inducing process over the course of time. Does that make sense?

Dean Pohlman: Yes.

Adam Sud: Okay, great. So in order to show that someone has achieved insulin sensitive, they not only have to achieve an ANC less than 5.7%, they have to do so while showing that they can their body can tolerate carbohydrate energy. The easiest way to do that is take something called a glucose tolerance test where you consume about 75 grams of carbohydrates, usually in liquid form, and then you monitor your blood glucose over the course of 2 hours.

Adam Sud: And if it goes above 180, you typically fail. Yeah, but a person who’s insulin sensitive should be able to eat as much carbohydrate as they want while achieving an A1 c less than 5.7% isn’t simply the reduction of A1 C, it’s the restoration of glucose tolerance. That’s insulin sensitivity.

Dean Pohlman: Got it. Okay. So this is something that, you know, my my wife had to do and this is probably something that every if your wife or if you are a woman and you get pregnant, this is something that pregnant women have to do because they typically there’s very common. But when you pregnant for whatever reason.

Adam Sud: Yeah. Gestational diabetes.

Dean Pohlman: Gestational that. Yes. And this like it’s incredibly, incredibly high percentage of women who are normally healthy who get gestational diabetes. And so they they do this test anyway. That’s that’s where my that’s where my really ability to this comes to right now because I remember my wife doing this test recently.

Adam Sud: The best work on insulin sensitivity ever written is a book called Mastering Diabetes. A New York Times best seller is the best understanding of insulin sensitivity. It’s been written not simply the best, because a lot of people are like, I just want to lower my glucose. Well, I mean, if you just never lower your glucose, that’s not a valuable thing to do in the long term, right?

Adam Sud: How do we effectively restore your body’s ability to do what it has is designed to do, which is tolerate carbohydrate energy, utilize it effectively and not have an issue as a result of it. Like nobody becomes insulin resistant because they’re eating carbohydrate. It’s just a biological fact. Carbohydrate energy is not the cause. Insulin resistance. Cause of insulin resistance is the excess accumulation of fatty acid energy inside of tissues that are not designed to store large quantities of fatty acids.

Adam Sud: That’s what it is. And so does the removal of meat aid in restoring insulin sensitivity. Yes. Does that mean that meat causes insulin resistance? Technically, no. Yeah, that makes sense.

Dean Pohlman: Yes, That’s a very long answer to my question. And now I know now I know more about insulin resistance. So I’m trying I’m going to summarize this because, like, you know, a lot of times what I’m like, if I were to read this in a book, I would I might I might actually fall asleep. Yeah. This is how my like, I’m not I’m not like a science oriented person.

Dean Pohlman: So I’m not I think I’m coming at this from the perspective of somebody who is like, you know, I’m really good at reading history. Like, I can read behavioral psychology, but like when you put numbers in front of me, I’m like her. Like my brain just turns off. So kind of summary here is if you if you have a diet that has too much fat and you do that over time, what happens is your insulin receptors become more resistant.

Dean Pohlman: They prevent the intake of glucose glycogen sources that your body prefers because it’s filled with lipids instead, which come from great fatty acids which come from fatty foods and drinks. And as a result of that, that’s where I’m that’s where I’m stuck right now. So as a result of that, what’s happening in the body you answer to Yes, but like you answer the way I could.

Adam Sud: So typically typically what happens is those those fat stores inside of your cell, you’re something called intra meiosis, cellular and intra hepatocellular lipid. So intra miles, cellular lipid stands for intra inside myeloma muscle, cellular, cellular and lipid fat. So fat in muscle cells in hepatic is just liver. So intrahepatic cellular fat in liver cells. What happens is at a point those those become optimally saturated.

Adam Sud: Like you’re not going to saturate the beyond that point. You’re just going to start accumulating more adipose tissue, right. Which is just body fat, which is also a factor in causing insulin, more adipose, you have more insulin resistance as well. And so typically what happens is a person is going to achieve in a significant degree of insulin resistance.

Adam Sud: Their agency might be getting up to as high as I mean, mine was at 12, I’ve seen as high as 16, but I haven’t really seen higher than that. I know there are cases of it, but typically what’s going to happen is you’re going to start to demonstrate and credit unhealthy outcomes. You’re going to start to demonstrate diabete advanced type two diabetes.

Adam Sud: You’re going to start to demonstrate advanced cardiovascular disease like super high cholesterol levels. You’re going to start to demonstrate high blood pressure levels and you’re going to start to gain strength.

Dean Pohlman: So it’s getting stored as fat.

Adam Sud: So the getting storage fat and so you’re going to see fatty liver occur. You’re going to see chronic kidney disease occur, You’re going to start to see atherosclerosis occur. And it’s just going to increase in those outcomes over time.

Dean Pohlman: So if you were to, let’s say, like, can this happen also if you’re like, what if you eat? What if you’re just eating carbs? What if you’re eating like a bunch of carbs instead of about a bunch of fatty foods? Yeah. So same thing happen or this is that’s, that’s different.

Adam Sud: Only in the event of calorie excess. So only this person is gaining weight as a result of that. And you have carbohydrate energy being converted to fat. Do you know lipo genesis, are you actually going to see the storage of fat energy that’s been converted from carbohydrate energy.

Dean Pohlman: Carbohydrate energy. So if they had the same amount of calories but they’re having more fats than carbohydrates, are they going to develop more insulin and more insulin resistance than somebody who is having more carbs.

Adam Sud: Or they’re going to do carbs, they’re going to develop it faster?

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Adam Sud: Yeah, much more effectively. A person who’s eating in calorie access is always going to end up gaining weight and weight gain independent of other variables is going to cause insulin resistance. But the the rate in which that occurs for someone who’s gaining weight as a result of the majority of their calories coming from fat, the disease process of insulin resistance is going to occur faster.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm. Okay. All right. I get it.

Adam Sud: Cool.

Dean Pohlman: So I’m going to go do a solo podcast on that 45 minutes explaining insulin resistance and now that’ll be terrible. I will not do that. All right, well, I want to keep asking questions about. Yes, let’s go vegan diet stuff. So something that, you know, we see a lot of is there are certain athletes who have vegan diets.

Dean Pohlman: Right. And you and you and I think these are just like these are this the big more popular interest stories, right? They’re like, oh, what’s the I’m just going to bring out the name that I remember. But like Cam Newton right down to the vegan diet. Yeah. And one of the things they say is like meat slows you down.

Dean Pohlman: Like, I notice that I’m just I’m just have high energy levels all the time. Does meat slow you down?

Adam Sud: So not not inherent me, but like, what I would say is if a person is eating a very high meat diet, they’re going to experience inflammatory levels. They’re going to probably experience some some insulin resistance. It’s going to have a sluggish feeling for them. And so when someone says, oh, I you know, I adopted a plant exclusive diet and I just feel lighter, that is a common experience.

Adam Sud: A plant, a plant exclusive diet, when done well, is highly inflammatory. I mean, anti-inflammatory. It’s very anti-inflammatory. It actually increases muscle recovery. There’s been phenomenal research on this as well. And actually, like I said, it optimizes insulin sensitivity. So your ability to uptake energy and output energy is optimized, which can feel really good for an athlete. Now depending on how much meat you a person has in their diet, you might feel exactly the same when you go plant based.

Adam Sud: You know, you might be like, I’m noticing a difference at all. Like I wasn’t I was eating meat, but I wasn’t eating like, you know, I wasn’t a carnivore. You know? So, you know, I don’t really notice any difference. And that may be true. But what’s really important to consider is not just how much meat are you eating, because, yes, dosage makes the poison like we’re not going to say all meat in any amount at any time is going to create the same detrimental effect over time.

Adam Sud: But what’s your source of meat? How much are you eating it? How often are you doing it? So a person who makes a transition from eating, you know, they’re eating red meat every day, but they’re not having, you know, having like a, you know, bacon in the morning. And then they have like a burger at night, like but I have a lot of vegetables all the time.

Adam Sud: I have a lot of vegetables with that. So, like, what’s the problem with the problem? MM There was a, there was a really interesting study that came out is called the it was a burden of proof study on unprocessed red meat consumption. And this actually got really popularized because one of the conclusions that they came out with was that they couldn’t say that one of the big reportings on this not, what the study found, but one of the big reporting on this was that we just showed that red meat, unprocessed red meat doesn’t cause heart disease, doesn’t cause colorectal cancer.

Adam Sud: You may have seen this reporting. And so what happened was they looked at unprocessed red meat consumption. And as long as your consumption of unprocessed red meat was less than 100 grams per day, on average, disease process risk didn’t increase. So then everyone goes, there you go. When looking this one aspect of the dataset, we can now say red meat is not causal.

Adam Sud: In this. The issue is as red meat consumption crosses that barrier as it went above 100 grams per day on average, risk across the board started to increase. So that’s valuable. So if you’re saying.

Dean Pohlman: This of whether or not it’s like it’s like whether it’s one or if it’s like grass fed.

Adam Sud: That has no no impact on it whatsoever. So that’s really important to recognize just in terms of like, okay, if I am going to include red meat in my diet, what’s what’s an appropriate amount for me to include it where I don’t increase these risk factors having increased risk factor doesn’t mean you’re going to get it. No, you might not.

Adam Sud: But how much risk are you willing to take on your health over time? And so that’s really, really valuable.

Dean Pohlman: So my question there is like I eat a lot of red meat. Yeah. And I am I don’t think I don’t know if I eat 100, I might eat. There might be some days where I have more than 100 grams a day, but think in general, I don’t. I also like to say that like I have like a 60 to 80% vegan diet because there you go eat it, then you’re.

Adam Sud: Actually probably doing really, really well.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Like I have a I talk about this a lot, but I love my morning smoothie. I feel an entire Vitamix with ingredients, with with fruits, with, with, with spinach, with. Yeah. You know, some, some flax seed, some chia seeds, a bunch of, like superfoods, like that ton of berries, like three cups of berries. And so a ton of my caloric consumption from the day comes from this smoothie and comes from other plants, other fruits.

Dean Pohlman: But I’m about the meat thing because I’m curious like, is this something that you can that you can measure in your blood and in your blood levels? Yes. Over a period of time? Or is it just something that you hit 65 and you look up, Shit, I fucked up. I’m done. Yeah.

Adam Sud: No, that’s a that’s a really great question. When we talk about risk, right. This is this is population risk, right? So for the average person when they look at risk factors, they’re going to go, was that mean I’m going to get those diseases? No, it just means your risk of getting it is increased. Well, you get it. Maybe, maybe not.

Adam Sud: That depends on factors, but the risk is always going to be same to the person. So when we look at that, what we’re going to say is, if I’m choosing to include these foods, am I including amount that I know increases risk or are there valuable substitutions I can make for foods that don’t have the same risk factor involved?

Adam Sud: So actually, the replacement of that red meat with foods like fish would actually be a very valuable substitution for make if you didn’t want to replace it with plants. Is the replacement of that red meat with plant calories always going to reduce your risk of those? Yes, as long as the replacement comes from whole intact plants. Not things like beyond burgers and impossible burgers.

Adam Sud: If the calories from your red meat were to be replaced with protein rich plant foods like tempeh, black beans or lentils, you’re going to reduce your disease risk every single time that is going to happen. Now, again, if you’re confident that your consumption of meat is about, you know, between 10 to 20% of your calories per day and you’re red in the presence of red meat in your diet is less than 100 grams per day on average.

Adam Sud: You’re probably going to do really, really. And I think that’s really like I’m a vegan and I would love it if people didn’t eat me. But I’m also not going to lie, you know, I’m not going to lie and tell you that if you eat meat, you’re doomed. That’s just not an accurate statement.

Dean Pohlman: So it’s just moderating that. Is there any difference between like, you know, I think a lot of I think one other comparison is we talked about this, but the standard American diet, sad versus the U.S. and then saying like, you know, you put all these pictures of there’s there’s pictures of this. Right. You show like a picture of like plants on one side and you show like a picture of all of these.

Adam Sud: Like really it’s like in McDonald’s.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, exactly. Like, is there like a significant difference between? You know, like, like a grass fed pasture raised, you know, you know, a pound of ground beef versus, you know, like this. Of course.

Adam Sud: Of course, there is. Of course there is. But however, you know, what what is really important to recognize is that when we’re looking at foods that we know have inherent risk as a percentage of or percentage of presence in your diet increases, it’s really important to be mindful of it. Does that does the sourcing of that and does the quality of that matter?

Adam Sud: Yes. The sourcing and quality of all foods matters. It doesn’t matter if it’s red meat, it doesn’t matter if it’s beans. You know, the sourcing and quality is always going to be a valuable factor to pay attention to. But in the thing is to recognize that certain foods come with certain inherent risks, and those inherent risks apply at a certain point in time.

Adam Sud: A certain dosage will make that that food either safe or insulting to health outcomes over time. So recognizing those risk factors, understanding at what point those risks might increase and at what point they decrease is going to be important for individuals who choose to continue to include those foods in their diet. That’s all.

Dean Pohlman: Okay. So I have I have two questions that I can take out. The first is I have a I have a friend who was originally really into yoga, bodyweight gymnastics training. Then he got into lifting. He got huge. And he also decided at this time that he wanted to be vegan to show that you could do this. And he ended up getting some stomach problems from I think he said he was just he was just having way too much volume.

Dean Pohlman: I think he was having too much rice or too much beans, and his stomach just couldn’t handle it. And then he started doing, I think he said like a yeah. And then I added like a pound of ground beef to my diet per day and now everything’s great. And so, like with him, my question is, and I think this is a couple of questions there is do you have to slowly transition to a vegan diet in order for it to be effective?

Dean Pohlman: And also, do you think with his case that it was just wasn’t having the right protein rich diet?

Adam Sud: So what I think what I think happened is.

Dean Pohlman: Okay, yeah, yeah.

Adam Sud: So what I think happened is you mentioned two foods that are very fiber rich. Beans are some of the most fiber rich foods on the planet. Now, your gut is like a muscle, right? So your gut contains bacteria that break bacteria, microbes that break down fiber. Now, the specific bacteria that break down plant fiber, the populations of those will shrink in the absence of those foods in your diet.

Adam Sud: So now you a population of bacteria that was once pretty populated. It was pretty populated in your what’s called your your microbiome. And as a removal of those foods over time, those bacterial populations shrink. And then this person decides, oh, what I’m going to do is I’m going to go 100% plant exclusive. I’m going to eat huge amounts of beans and rice, which is an incredible amount of fiber.

Adam Sud: And I’m going just start eating it tomorrow. What happened is that person put those fiber very huge amounts, like significant, especially he’s a powerlifter. I’m assuming this guy’s like 3500 calories. So it is not outrageous to assume he was eating upwards of 100 to 120 grams of fiber before he may have been eating 40. So these fiber hit his gut and the bacterial population required to break it down was just not populated enough to do it effectively.

Adam Sud: And he got problems like GI distress, bloating, gas, GI pain as a result of it. And so what he did was, oh, I just feel terrible. Then he removed those fruits from his diet and a result of the removal or what we call elimination of the foods that were causing the symptom, The symptom went away. And he goes, That’s it.

Adam Sud: There you go. I can’t do that. No, what happened was it was the equivalent of a person who had started working out when they were younger, then just didn’t for 20 years and then went back to the gym and tried to bench press what they did before, which might have been £200, and they got injured or they got really sore and they go, Oh my God, this feels terrible.

Adam Sud: I just must not be made to lift weights. No This person would have done much better if they had been slowly and incrementally adjusting their dietary pattern from one that included a lot of meat to one that included more calories coming from plants in a slow fashion so that the bacteria had time to repopulate.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm. Okay. Next question. A lot of people talk about hair loss or like lower testosterone levels with switching to a vegan diet. I’m assuming that’s not because the vegan diet is wrong. I’m assuming it’s because they’re doing it wrong. What’s happening here? What are they not what are they missing? So.

Adam Sud: Number one, there’s there could be a lot of things going on when a person experiences hair loss, low testosterone. The interesting thing is that when you look at plant based populations, populations of people that eat either plant predominant because there’s not actually a lot of population to consume a plant exclusive diet, in fact, globally, I don’t know if there actually are any cultures that do it, but when you look at the populations around the world that have a plant predominant lifestyle, their testosterone levels are typically exceedingly high.

Adam Sud: They’re very, very high. And so if a person is adopting a dietary lifestyle where their testosterone plummets and they say, I tried a vegan diet and my testosterone went down by saying they ate a vegan diet, all I know is what they’re not eating. I don’t know what they’re actually eating, which is the biggest problem I have with people saying, I want to do a vegan diet.

Adam Sud: I’m like, You’ve got to tell me what that means to you because a vegan diet just tells me you’re not eating animal products. I don’t know if you’re eating Doritos, you know, like Cheetos or nuts, not Cheetos, like Fritos and all these other things, Oreos and bagels and all this stuff. It really is completely has no nutritional integrity.

Adam Sud: Or if you’re actually switching to what would be considered a plant based whole food, which is a very nutritionally has high amounts of nutritional integrity, lots of value and would likely increase those outcomes. So it’s hard for me to say what happened to those individual cases. What if they said I tried a vegan diet? Likely what happened was their dietary pattern was insufficient to meet their needs.

Dean Pohlman: Okay. All right. Next question. Common supplementation needs for vegan diets, because I think this is where a lot of people mess up. And that’s I’ve also heard, you know, when I do talk with, you know, I haven’t had too many conversations with I haven’t had too many conversations about specific diets, like talking about like, what do you eat on a daily basis, What are your supplementation with vegans?

Dean Pohlman: But when I have had those conversations, there has been there have been conversations like, Oh, I also need to like, yeah, I’m doing this. There are some supplements that I do need to take and these are those supplements. So like what are those supplements that like you need to be aware of that would be very helpful for a vegan diet.

Adam Sud: Yeah. So the supplements that I’m going to list would actually be pretty beneficial for the majority of people. Okay. The three that come to mind, obviously, first off the bat is B12.

Dean Pohlman: B12. Yes, I knew that.

Adam Sud: Yeah. So here’s the thing about B12. This is a really cool thing about B12. People think B12 comes from animals. It doesn’t B12, Vitamin B12 originates from micro-organisms in the soil, and then when consumed, your body converts that microorganism into a B12 vitamin K. So since all of our if we live in a toxic food environment, we live a toxic soil environment.

Adam Sud: When you food is sold at the grocery stores, those that produce has to be triple washed before it’s put out on in the produce on the stand. So what they’ve done is they’ve effectively washed bacterial microorganisms off of the food. And so by consuming just the plants, you’re not going to get enough of it for your body to make its own.

Adam Sud: Interestingly, because of that same issue, because of soil depletion, because of the lack of biodiversity in the soil, most produce alone has a deficiency in these microorganisms and in or for the animal livestock to get enough B12, they have to inject animals with B12 supplementation. So the funny thing is, is people who eat meat, who don’t supplementing with B12, you actually are supplementing with B12.

Adam Sud: You just ate the supplement that that animal was given. And so B12 supplementation is valuable for anybody. The majority of people in Western cultures are B12 deficient, regardless of their dietary pattern. So if you’re curious, go get your B12 levels checked. You can supplement with B12 typically between about like 3000 micrograms of B12 per week is enough to supplement your lifestyle.

Adam Sud: The second one is D3. So D3 is is another vitamin that doesn’t come from food actually comes from sun exposure. And so we absorb D3 from the sun. Now we all know that of course, the world is not what it was ten, 20, 30, 100,000 years ago. And so Sun exposure is not as safe as it used to be.

Adam Sud: And so most people also live a lot of their time indoors. So even when we are outside in the sun, it’s not enough to provide us with the D3 that we need in order to be optimally healthy. Most Americans and people in Western cultures are D3 deficient regardless of the dietary pattern. So supplementing with D3 is really valuable.

Adam Sud: I do that every single day. Here’s one that’s a big one. Omega three. Omega three supplementation amongst plant exclusive eaters is going to be a little bit more important than those who are not plant exclusive. I recommend it for everybody, but especially for those who are on a plant exclusive diet. And the reason for this is simple your brain converts ALA or your body converts ala to DHEA and EPA, which are the omega threes that you’re beneficial for.

Adam Sud: Like cognitive longevity has cardioprotective benefits. There is about 20%. I believe this number is correct. I might be wrong. And if I’m wrong, that’s fine of people who simply have an incredibly difficult time converting Alpha to DHEA and EPA. So the easiest way to not ever have to worry about this problem is just take a DHEA, an EPA supplement, every single day, and don’t worry about it.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, you can get it. Like that’s like a fish oil supplement. I take those.

Adam Sud: It’s a fish oil supplement. Or you can get converted. DHEA, an EPA that comes from algae, which is the source where the fish get it from. And you can they convert it to DHEA and EPA, and you can you can get a vegan DHEA, an EPA supplement. So if you’re a person who doesn’t want to eat fish or have anything to do with it, you can get it.

Adam Sud: And it’s important. Just get it. There’s other supplements are really, really valuable that I take every single day. Number one is K two. So K two is an important supplement that increases calcium absorption into your bones. Now, calcium deficiency is not something you’re going to easily find on a plant rich diet. The main source of calcium is plants.

Adam Sud: The origin of it. Calcium is a minerals found in the ground. So and in leafy greens and and root vegetables can be very rich in calcium. So you’re going to get more than you need.

Dean Pohlman: Does drinking milk help calcium? I have to ask because like, we’re here and you’re here and I’m like, I’m just going to ask.

Adam Sud: This is a great this is a great question. Does drinking milk help calcium? Drinking milk? Milk has calcium. Yeah. So that’s your only source of calcium, then it helps. But it’s not like a benefit inherently that like if you don’t, you’re going to be deficient. And I want to talk to something else. Osteoporosis is not calcium deficiency. That’s not what it is.

Adam Sud: Osteoporosis is, bone atrophy. So bone atrophy is a result of a culture that sits too much. We have a culture that wakes up in the morning and goes to the kitchen table to set to go get in your car and sit so we can drive to the office and sit, so we can go to lunch and sit in the drive home and sit at dinner and then sit in the living room, watch TV and go to bed, and then repeat that process.

Adam Sud: Very few people are moving their bodies. Your bones are living organisms that respond to stress in the same way that your muscles respond. Stress When there’s a stimulus, a challenge is applied to the skeletal frame. Either through walking, you have impact or you’re putting weight on your frame. You’re doing squats, you’re challenging your skeletal frame to defend itself against this challenge.

Adam Sud: And it defends itself by in taking calcium and creating denser bones. That’s what fights osteoporosis is, using your skeletal frame now in order to optimize calcium absorption. K Two vitamins are incredibly valuable because on absorbed calcium can find itself in your arteries. So the calcification of of cholesterol plaques and stuff as a result of excess unobservable calcium, there’s some research to support that.

Adam Sud: But supplementing with K2 is very valuable thing to do. And K2 is also kind of hard to get on a plant exclusive diet. You can get it from some like things like there’s a really gross food that has this rich in K2 that I don’t even want to touch, but so just supplement with K2 and you’re good. And the other one I take is creatine.

Adam Sud: Creatine is one of the safest supplements ever studied. Now, there’s actually some research showing some cognitive benefit to creatine supplementation, but I use it as a and the reason everyone else does who uses it which is a performance supplementation.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I took creatine back in high school because I thought it was really important. Yeah, it.

Adam Sud: It does work. It is valuable. And and for those who are athletes it like I said, it’s one of the safest supplements ever studied. And now the new studies on cognitive benefit and creatine supplementation is pretty interesting reduction in spread it has a cognitive protective benefit. Okay.

Dean Pohlman: All right. Now I have my last question. I think who knows? Organic versus inorganic. Yeah. Produce. This is I’ve seen there’s so much yeah, I’ve seen some.

Adam Sud: Heated.

Dean Pohlman: Topics in the show media right now and and like there’s some people who go to the one end of the extreme and they’re like if you eat any plant that is not organic like you are stuffing yourself with poison like I don’t think that’s true.

Adam Sud: It’s not true. Yeah. So certain foods are dirtier tech, quote unquote dirtier than others. And there’s always a list that’s put out called the Dirty Dozen, which is like the produce that is most sprayed with pesticides. And if you’re an individual who just really wants to avoid those foods, you can buy those organic. And typically it’s kind of thin skinned fruits and things like corn is a highly pesticide ridden food of berries because of how thin the skin is, it’s going to get into the food.

Adam Sud: And so a lot of those are on the Dirty Dozen. But here’s the thing. When we when we talk about things like pesticides or when we talk about conventionally raised produce versus organic raised produce and is there risk, we have to look at studies that look at health outcomes over the course of time, Right? So we want to look at populations of people who consume those foods.

Adam Sud: And what do we see as a result of that consumption over time? Do we see any statistically significant increases in chronic disease outcomes? Now, the data on this does not show that there is any significant or statistically significant increase risk in the consumption conventionally raised produce versus organic produce. However, I’m not a moron and I’m not going to say there isn’t risk in poison.

Adam Sud: Okay, I have a personal belief that when I can buy organic, I want to buy organic for two reasons. One, while the data may not show it yet, I fully recognize that research is an ever evolving and ever changing medium, meaning that there may be data that comes out in a little bit that says, Hey, guess what? We did a new study in a different method.

Adam Sud: We actually found risk. So if you can buy organic do for two reasons. One, let’s avoid that risk that may not have been discovered yet. If you can’t do it right now, there is no data to suggest you should be concerned. Number two, if you can, let’s support organic farmers. Let’s support people who want to care for the soil who want to care for the air and who want to care for the animals and plants that surround them.

Adam Sud: That is an intention of mine. That is why organic produce purchasing is important to me.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm. So I’ve also heard that organic versus inorganic pesticides or whatever used that organic, I don’t know. I don’t even know. I’ve been describing this. Right. But I’ve heard that organic is just a certain category of pesticides and that they’re not necessarily less harmful than pesticides that would be considered not organic. And I’m yeah, I’m probably asking that question incorrectly, but I’m not looking for.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I’m not. I’m looking for.

Adam Sud: I, I wish I knew the answer to that because there’s different from what I understand. There’s different gradings of organic, right. And then you have like the whole non-GMO versus organic and organic, you know, non-GMO is and technically it doesn’t have to be organic, but organic has to be non-GMO and all these other categories and subcategories and stuff.

Adam Sud: It’s very confusing. Yes. I don’t know what the answer is on that question. However, my my thing is this all you can do is the best you can and you can do the best you can with what you have. So if you’re going in and you’re like, I want to eat more plants, because from what I understand is the increased consumption of whole intact plants, benefits, human health outcomes and the plants that you love to eat that allow you to make changes that will benefit your health.

Adam Sud: Some of them are conventional and some of them organic. Make the choices available to you and advocate for changing your stores. Say, Hey, I really love buying this, this food, this produce, but I see that you don’t have any organic. If you did, I’d buy it. Please, let’s just change that. Be advocates and say, I want to I want to give you my money and I want to support that change with financial incentive.

Adam Sud: I want to pay for the change that I want to see in the world. I’m here telling you as a customer, as a consumer, that’s what I want to see. That’s the thing that everybody has the ability to do. And if you don’t find it there, go check out your local farmers markets. Support local farmers who are trying to do really well, who are trying to bring products that we just don’t see at the conventional grocery stores or in quality that we don’t want, that we no longer see in grocery.

Adam Sud: So maybe if you have to travel five miles more in order to do that, perhaps it might be worth exploring it and see if it meets your value system.

Dean Pohlman: Hm. Okay. All right. I’ll have to check. My grandparents. They own a grocery store. Make sure they’re there each other, make sure they’re getting as many organic sources as they can. All right. I did think of one last question here. And I think, you know, you know, as you were describing the the the slaughterhouse, you know, that really did make me think like, oh, you know, that is something that I definitely overlook in my own personal meat consumption.

Dean Pohlman: And, you know, everyone has to if you’re or you acknowledge and you know, there’s also some pretty I follow cool account I forgot what it’s called but they you know they’re very open about how they, you know, process their foods in their process, you know, which is another way of how they, you know, how they kill and, you know, get their their produce ready.

Dean Pohlman: And they’re very, you know, it’s a small farm. And but they go through this whole explanation of how they use their resources and how they’re like, you know, this was our cow and we love this cow and this is, you know, and now, you know. And so I think that it’s really cool to see that in like a different way.

Dean Pohlman: So I guess I’m saying that just to say, like, I am considering these different, you know, outcomes. But that leads me into this question to ask, is it true that somebody who is eating meat is consuming overall resources than somebody who is consuming all plants? Yes. Or is this so is this like not a is this.

Adam Sud: No, this the data on this is actually really good because a researcher I believe his name is Nicholas Carter. He’s the I think he’s the world’s leading authority on this. And so when think about resources in order to to produce a calorie of animal product, it’s about 100 to 1. So you need about a hundred calories of and 100 calories in for every one calorie that you get out.

Adam Sud: And so the largest use of available land on the planet is animal agriculture. Actually, the majority of usable land on the planet is used for animal agriculture. The majority of calories grown, 80% of calories grown on the planet are grown specifically to feed animal livestock in order to feed people. Okay, We have we have a population of 8 billion humans and we raise and feed and support a hundred billion land every year for human consumption.

Adam Sud: So when people say the reason why we have a food shortage is because we have a population problem, no, we don’t have a population problem. We have a human food population problem. The majority of calories consumed on the planet are calories fed to animals that we later eats. We lose, you know, 100 to 1 on that. Yeah. The largest use of fresh water is for animal agriculture, the largest contributor to rainforest deforestation is the deforestation of rainforest specifically to create opportunity to grow crops that are fed to animals.

Adam Sud: So if you’re saying, hey, I want to reduce I people always say, well, you know, the largest factor in the deforestation of the Amazon rainforest is for soy. Yes, but all of that soy is grown specifically to feed animals. It’s 87% of or 80% of all soy products grown are for animal consumption. Another 13% of that is for products like plastics.

Adam Sud: Only about 7% of the soy grown on the planet is for human consumption. So we have a huge issue when it comes to resource intensive nature of raising animals on this planet. Now, what would be beneficial? Do I think we need another thousand perfect vegans? Absolutely not we need a hundred million people making intentional changes to their dietary pattern to reduce the consumption of animal products.

Adam Sud: If we displaced half of that energy. Right, if we displaced half of that land and restored it to either growing calories for humans or allowing forces to come back, that would make a massive difference. This is not an all or nothing game, but my brother always says the world doesn’t need you to do everything, but the world needs everything you can do.

Adam Sud: And if you can just make some significant change to your dietary and just consider, Hey, look, I know that there’s no inherent risk. There’s no inherent risk in me replacing certain calories coming from animal products with calories coming from plant products like beans and grains and soy products. Unless you have a soy allergy or individual soy sensitive, then you would avoid those.

Adam Sud: There’s no inherent risk here. I want to try it when I see how I feel. I want to be contributing to change in environmental impact, and I want to see how I feel. And when it comes to the way that animals are slaughtered, my answer is this I get it. I appreciate people who are trying to find a more, quote unquote, humane way to do that.

Adam Sud: But me personally, I don’t know a humane way to take the life of something that doesn’t want to die. That’s me. Yeah. And so for me, in order to align with my own moral compass, my actions have to look like avoiding that choice every single time.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm. Okay. All right. That was cool, because, yeah, there was like, there was, like, I noticed, like, this, this progression of, of of, like, factual to like. Yeah, still factual, but now, like, more and more passionate and it’s like, yes. And showed over.

Adam Sud: The course or it got great on the second half of the conversation was like truly phenomenal.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah that was cool So now I’m like so now I’m thinking and if you’re listening to this and you’re like, you know, this is like, these are really good. These are some really good points here. Now I’m thinking like, how can I, you know, I’m not saying I’m going to be giving up meat anytime soon, but in an effort to, you know, to help the world, I think me starting to understand how can I integrate some of these?

Dean Pohlman: Um, how can integrate more of a vegan diet into my lifestyle. So understanding, you know, what are some what are some dinners that I can make that don’t have meat or. What are some.

Adam Sud: Great, great.

Dean Pohlman: Typical meals that I can eat where I you know, I have eggs every day, for example, Like how yeah, what can I have instead? So like you mentioned, game changers as a website. What are some of the sources that people might.

Adam Sud: My three favorite websites for recipes are plant strong, become forks, knives, dotcom. Great, great. Those are two fantastic websites for this. And then for those who are athletes who are going to be a little bit more protein focused game changers has recipes. So game changers dot com has recipes as well.

Dean Pohlman: As game changers. Is that Arnold Schwarzenegger or is that like a. It is. It is. Okay.

Adam Sud: Yes.

Dean Pohlman: Wow. Okay, cool. I do want to I, I well, I don’t know if I want to I don’t need this. I don’t need to say what I was I was about to say. I think I think seen some some conversations with people where they interview strongmen or they interview athletes and they you know what, we’re just going to cut this part because I don’t think like one of my at 131 3732 got this note 137 3722 cut this part.

Dean Pohlman: Okay, those are awesome resources. I’m going to have to take a look at those. And because I have no idea how to integrate like tempeh into my diet or like, yeah, you know, things like tempeh.

Adam Sud: Is one of my favorite foods. So the number one way I consume tempeh is I make my favorite burrito bowl, right? So chopped romaine lettuce, rice, beans topped with tempeh, some cumin, some onion powder, some garlic powder, some cayenne pepper, a little bit of hot sauce, a little bit of salsa, cashew. So on top and go to town.

Dean Pohlman: Okay. And then into my understanding. So like, if I, if I, if I’m subbing those kinds of things for meat, does that give me what, what changes happened in terms of do I have a little bit more leeway to add in more carbohydrates? Do I have or kind of what’s happening there?

Adam Sud: Yeah. So what’s likely going to happen is if you were to say, all right, every night, three days a week, I have steak, right. And I want to switch that to tofu or grilled tempeh, what you’re going to end up doing is you’re going to have a little bit of a reduction calorie for calorie and percentage of calories coming from protein.

Adam Sud: A little bit more coming from carbohydrate. And so likely because of the rest of your dietary pattern, you’re still going to meet your protein needs pretty easily because actually ten days are pretty high protein food. So just you don’t have to worry about whether it adds more carbohydrates to your macro split or not. Just notice how you feel.

Adam Sud: You know you can do really well with carbohydrate percentages coming up to even 75%. As long as you’re meeting your your protein needs is typically to 65% of calories coming from protein sorry, from from carbohydrate about ten to anywhere from 10 to 20 coming from from fat and the rest coming from protein. And like I said, I get it in 150 range every single day of protein.

Adam Sud: Okay.

Dean Pohlman: Cool. All right. Oh, I think we gave people a time to think about hopefully some actionable information. Yeah. Can you remind people how they can follow you learn more about doing so. Plant based for positive change.

Adam Sud: Yeah. So Plant Based for Positive Change is a nonprofit that I started in order to run research study. So I ran the first controlled trial investigating the effects of nutrition on early addiction recovery outcomes. We talked about it on the last Yeah podcast. You can reach out to me through my website, Adam’s SI.com, if you’d like to work with me as a consultant for helping you reorganize your calories.

Adam Sud: You can do that. You can book a free discovery call with me through my website. You can also book me as a speaker to talk on everything from addiction recovery to mental health to even insulin resistance. If that talk today didn’t bother you if it attracted you, if you’re like, Holy shit, this is amazing, and you want me to come and give a lecture on insulin resistance, I do that as well.

Adam Sud: So that’s that’s where you can find me sweet.

Dean Pohlman: Okay. Well, Adam, thanks again for joining me. Guys. If you’re listening while you’re listening right now, obviously you’re listening. Thank you for listening. I hope you got a lot of that out of this. I hope it inspires you to be a better man. And I’ll see you guys on the next episode.