How Analyzing Movement Can Uncover Your True Self | Andrew Daniel | Better Man Podcast Ep. 074

Dean Pohlman: Hey, guys, it’s Dean. Welcome to the Better Man podcast. Today I’m once again joined by Andrew Daniel, who is the author of Awaken to Your True Self. And today we’re going to try doing this interview a little bit differently. So in the past, what I’ve realized is these episodes go so long that we need two episodes. And rather than, you know, asking Daniel a bit more questions specifically about his work, I wanted to actually do some of them.

Dean Pohlman: So, you know, as long as you are here listening to this intro, that means that this interview was approved for release. And we’re going to we’re going to go deep, we’re going to do the work. So so anyways, Andrew, thanks for doing this with us.

Andrew Daniel: Thanks for having me, Dean, and thanks for the courage to to go here.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I mean, so just for context, for everyone listening. So it’s been about five days since we decided we had to put my dog down flow on After about a year struggling with brain cancer and dementia, a lot of downs, one brief up period and another down period, He told me it was time. You know, I’ve heard this from a lot of people I’ve talked with, but, you know, he looked me in the eyes and he said, I don’t want to suffer anymore.

Dean Pohlman: And things just got worse after that. And I realized, okay, we got to go. So we took him to the pet hospital. We, you know, called ahead of time. The room was already preps, went through the whole process, took him into the back, came back out with an IV. We said our goodbyes, and then I left without my dog.

Dean Pohlman: And I’m only able to talk about this right now in this kind of level voice, because I’ve been, you know, exploring all these feelings and confronting all this grief and going through it over the past few days. So this is all to say that. Andrew, I’m already in a very vulnerable place right now. So it should make your work easier, but it should also, you know, I don’t know.

Dean Pohlman: So anyways, that’s where I’m at and I’m looking forward to trying this out.

Andrew Daniel: Great. Let’s do it. Okay.

Dean Pohlman: So first off, I kind of wanted to get people a sense of how this work is different from a lot of typical self work. So my, my familiarity with this realm would be in, you know, typical talk based psychiatry. I have a standing weekly or biweekly appointment with a you know, with a therapist who I, you know, just sometimes we talk about general issues that show up in my life in repeated ways.

Dean Pohlman: Sometimes we talk about specific incidents, but generally it is me talking, then listening and then kind of rephrasing back to me what they’re hearing or trends that they’re noticing as I’m going through these things. And that’s about a 50 minute session. And and that’s what it is. So how is the work that you do different from that?

Andrew Daniel: Great. So let’s start off with, you know, what is the work that I do, The process that I go through and I’m the founder of is called Send us some addicts. And so most people probably haven’t heard of this. You know, it’s a fairly advanced and cutting edge process. But because of that, we’re on the leading edge of what’s actually working.

Andrew Daniel: So it’s not a belief based system, even though there’s a lot of spiritual components to it. It’s not an evidence based system, even though there’s plenty of evidence. It’s a results based system. And what I mean by that is there’s no dogma, there’s no blind belief or faith, and there’s also no avoidance of what works because of stigma, taboo or dogma.

Andrew Daniel: We do what works obviously within the realm of morals and ethics, but what works is within the realm of morals and ethics. And so let’s start with the name Sinner. So Addicts. So sinner comes from cinema, right? Video and somatic meaning of the body. So right off the bat you can tell that this is a very different approach than a mental talk therapy.

Andrew Daniel: Now we still talk and there is therapeutics, but we go about it from the body rather than the mind. And so how a typical session or process like this would work, which gives you a good idea of what it actually looks like, is what we do is instead of sitting around and talking for things which talking is a part of it and it is helpful.

Andrew Daniel: But oftentimes what happens is that it can take a long time. It just takes a long time to to talk through things and to go back and forth over weeks, months, even years. A lot of people experience. And so what we do instead is actually get somebody up and having them move. So I’ll have them shake their hands, walk around the room.

Andrew Daniel: We have dancing, we have a slack line diagnostic where people walk in a line. And so we have all of these different movements individually or partner or in a group, and we film this. And so when we do it in person, we have very high end cinematography equipment, you know, the same stuff used in Hollywood movies. And so we’re able to capture all of this data in the video.

Andrew Daniel: And then what we do is after they’re done moving, after we film that, we all come back, sit down, and then we play the video back. And so what I do is rather than analyzing things like body language or having a checklist and saying, all right, well, your face is tilted 12 degrees this way, well, that means this.

Andrew Daniel: Instead of doing that, what I’m doing is getting out of my head and dropping down into my body. And instead of analyzing, I’m feeling. So I’m looking at the client, I’m feeling the movement. And from that feeling of the movement, I’m able to observe unconscious subconscious patterns, stories, blocks, belief systems, traumas, shadow material, archetypes. I’m able to see these things through the movement of the body, and then I reflect that back to the client.

Andrew Daniel: So it’s not advice, it’s not right or wrong. It’s not good or bad. It’s not my opinion. I am simply acting like a mirror and reflecting back and making this unconscious, emotional mental, maybe energetic spiritual material conscious for them. So as Carl Jung said, until you make the unconscious conscious, it’ll run your life and you’ll call it fate.

Andrew Daniel: This is a modality that lets that unconscious become conscious and allows you to make new choices to determine your fate. Now, with all of that said, the power of the video lies in the ability of the client being able to see this for themselves in their own body. So it’s not just trusting a they’re a therapist, it’s not blindly following a guru or an authority.

Andrew Daniel: Yes, the feedback I give is really good and really accurate, but you do not have to just trust what I’m saying. Obviously, I hope that they trust it because it’s accurate. That’s where they’re working with me. But you do not have to rely on that alone. You get to see it for yourself on video. If I give the feedback, then you look at the video in your self moving and say, Oh, oh wow, yeah, there it is.

Andrew Daniel: And so through that process it creates this feedback loop and it’s very fast, very accurate, and because of that, very advanced and very confronting. So it is not a beginner kind of work. It is stuff that reveals things that a lot of people spend a lot of their life trying to hide and suppress. But it’s because of that that we get such incredible results.

Andrew Daniel: We have tremendous healing and it lasts, right? It’s not just coming in and dealing with surface level stuff. We go to the root of everything, we reveal all of it, and we have clients not get rid of it, not try to delete it, not try to cut it out of them, all that bad stuff they don’t want anymore about getting rid of it.

Andrew Daniel: It’s about feeling it. And when you go into it and feel it, you start integrating it. You start regaining all of those resources that were lost by suppressing it, avoiding it, dragging it out, numbing it out, etc.. So the entire process is not only relevant to me, but it’s also healing. And it’s also not just healing. It also helps the client become more functional because there’s a lot of times that we do healing work great.

Andrew Daniel: You feel better, but you don’t necessarily know how to make more money. You don’t necessarily know how to talk to strangers better. Your relationships don’t necessarily improve, and vice versa. With traditional self-help, sure, you’re improving yourself, but there’s not necessarily healing. There’s not necessarily a transformative healing aspect to it. So this is a process that brings together that healing and personal transformation along with becoming more functional in your own life.

Andrew Daniel: And we do that through video, through feedback, through movement and through feeling, Okay.

Dean Pohlman: Cool. One thing that I was thinking about as you were talking about that is it’s the the opposite of total, opposite of non movement. You know, you think of the, the 1950s or 1960s, uh, you know, psychiatry appointments where you’re on the couch and you’re not able to move, right? So this is like, no, we’re actually going to this is all it is going to be is movement.

Dean Pohlman: So that’s cool. So, you know, I don’t want to pry myself any one way or another, but I am curious, you know, maybe after this is we can ask, like, what are the what are common things that come up for people? But maybe right now I’m just terrified of of you doing this process. So what’s so.

Andrew Daniel: Great.

Dean Pohlman: Right? Because like, why? Why not? Like, why not just do it? Why not just do it on your own when you can, when you can make it public? Because that makes that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Take it away, chief.

Andrew Daniel: All right. So one of the things before we before we begin is this process. We normally have the have a video replay component. So we’re going to be doing it a little differently here because we’re not recording it and playing it back immediately. So that is actually a big part of the process. So this isn’t going to be necessarily the full 100% experience because it is very helpful to watch the replay of yourself.

Andrew Daniel: Okay. But, you know, so we’re going to adapt it to that. And I’ll be giving you more real time feedback. So this will look different than a traditional first few call kind of thing, but you’ll be able to get the idea of how it works. All right. So as we get into this, as I said, how this works is I’m going to be giving you feedback.

Andrew Daniel: And so I’m just going to have you do a few basic movements and we’ll just go with whatever comes up. So neither of us know what’s coming up. There may be some ideas, right? You’re going through a grieving process. You know, there’s some fear and grief, so that may come up. It’s probably right there on the surface. But besides that, we’ll we’ll see what happens.

Andrew Daniel: So do I have permission to give you feedback and tell you what I’m seeing?

Dean Pohlman: Yes.

Andrew Daniel: Awesome. Great. All right. So we’re going to do a little bit of two different diagnostics. The first one is called a basically a handshake diagnostic. We’re just going to have you move your hands. Your hands are how you actualize yourself in the world. And then the second part we’re going to do is in archetype diagnostic and that one, we’re going to go into specific ways that you embody concepts.

Andrew Daniel: So certain ways that you embody these archetypes in life are going to determine the results you get. So let’s we’ll start with the with the first movement first and go through that one. Then we’ll talk about it a little bit. Then we’ll hop into the archetype one after that so you can kind of see the difference. Okay.

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Andrew Daniel: All right. So what I’m going to need you to do is scoot back a little bit.

Dean Pohlman: Move this a supplicant?

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. I just need to see you from the top of your head to your thighs. It’s good, right about there. You go. Up a little bit. Perfect. Great. All right, so before we get into anything, let’s just have you stand there for a minute. So as I said, we’re going to do this a little differently because we don’t have the the replay or anything.

Andrew Daniel: So let me ask you, while you’re standing there, what are you feeling? What’s your experience? What are the stories, judgments, thoughts, feelings coming up?

Dean Pohlman: So as I’m standing there and I’m thinking, what is you know, what is he going to see is he going to see? Is he going to see that Like I’m standing a certain way? Am I like, am I giving off enough? Am I giving enough confidence to to seem to see masculine or am I do I look like I’m overdoing it?

Dean Pohlman: Do I look neutral or do I. Yeah, I think that’s that’s the first that’s the thing that I’m thinking about as I’m standing is like, am I am I as I stand here, do I look like I’m giving off a strong appearance or do I look weak or do I look like I’m trying to give off? Too strong of appearance.

Andrew Daniel: Got it. So yeah, with with that, you notice that you are trying to manage your image, right? Trying to manage how the space is perceiving you and so that that puts you up in your head, right. Because rather than actually being present and spontaneously expressing yourself, you’re trying to manage how you appear to the world.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm. Okay.

Andrew Daniel: So with that, then you start to ask, All right, so what happens if you were not perceived in those ways?

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Andrew Daniel: So, you know, what’s the you know, what would happen if someone perceived you as maybe too feminine or not enough masculine or over masculine?

Dean Pohlman: Oh, weird. Now I’m like, now I have, like, cold tingles. If that were to happen, people would. I’m thinking.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, So I’m going to pause you here. So notice you’re going like this. Yeah. Thinking up there. So in this work, one of the things that we do very differently is help people who think a lot, who are amazing thinkers, but not feelers, get out of their head and into their body. Oftentimes when we are in our heads, one of the things we’re doing is avoiding actually going into the feeling.

Andrew Daniel: So I’ll invite you to go into the feeling and speak from the feeling instead of thinking about it.

Dean Pohlman: Okay? Yeah. Fear that I’m being perceived as not strong or overly feminine or or being being able to take, you know, being able to be taken advantage of or being perceived as someone who could be.

Andrew Daniel: You go back into your body, you went up into your head.

Dean Pohlman: Someone who could be taken or dominated or somehow controlled or or manipulated or told what to do, things that I don’t want to do. Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: It’s a fear, you know, not not feeling safe, not trusting.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. The other thing that’s coming through is that you’re really hard on yourself.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Andrew Daniel: There’s a real intensity into the way you treat yourself.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: So then let me ask you this. What would happen if you weren’t intense with yourself? What would the consequence of that be?

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I would fail. I would lose everything. Yeah. I wouldn’t be successful with my business. I wouldn’t be a good partner. I wouldn’t be a good father. I wouldn’t be useful. Anyone.

Andrew Daniel: So you can see there’s a massive, massive incentive and fear and pressure in order to be, you know, to be hard on yourself.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm.

Andrew Daniel: So what would happen if instead you were compassionate with yourself?

Dean Pohlman: If I were compassionate with myself, I’d be able to be myself. I wouldn’t have to. I wouldn’t be concerned about the appearance that I’m giving off or the I wouldn’t be as concerned with my success.

Andrew Daniel: Would you lose those other things that you got from being hard?

Dean Pohlman: Quite possibly. And my maybe not at this point, but I might not be here. I wouldn’t be I wouldn’t have been able to study to the extent that I did or to be the athlete to the extent that I was, I wouldn’t been able to train myself as hard.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. So just Yes. So the thing you want to see here is that you have all of that stuff wrapped up in being hard on yourself. So there’s all of these secondary gains you get from this intensity and pressure that you put on yourself. And so from from your place of being, it almost feels like if you stopped all of that pressure on yourself, it it actually feels almost like you wouldn’t be here.

Andrew Daniel: It’s almost annihilating.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. I mean, if I didn’t have pressure on myself, I don’t even know. Yeah, I mean, I don’t even know what that would look like. That’s how I’ve been forever.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. So the thing you know, so the thing with that is that what and what will actually play with this, You know, the way you’ve grown up, you’ve this is just the model of reality, right? This is just. Oh well, you just have to be hard on yourself. It’s not even maybe it’s not even a bad thing. That’s good, because it’s going to get you all this.

Andrew Daniel: It’s going to make you perform, it’s going to make you provide. But then you look under it and say, All right, well, if I don’t do this and I don’t provide, why am I useful to anybody? So then what value do I have?

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm.

Andrew Daniel: And that and so we learn intellectually, right? Oh, I still have value. Sure. But what’s the feeling? The fear is that what worth do I have if I can’t provide and perform all this way? And how am I going to perform and provide all this if I’m not hard on myself? Right? So you just see how it just reacts.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm. Yeah. There’s a difference between knowledge and integration into your body.

Andrew Daniel: Exactly. And that what you just said is what I call embodiment. So a lot of people have different terms and ideas for this word, but that’s really what embodiment is actually taking this stuff and having it in your body, not just living it and practicing it, but it actually being in your muscles, your bones, your skin, your body.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm.

Andrew Daniel: So, all right. So that was just kind of the standing there. We haven’t done any movement yet, but.

Dean Pohlman: Oh, good.

Andrew Daniel: So this is just kind of the first little bit that comes through from you standing there. The the other great thing about the other great thing, but what else I noticed is that you were fairly still there wasn’t a lot of anxiety. And so that’s really great to see. However, my only concern would be that that stillness came from that pressure rather than true peace.

Dean Pohlman: Mm.

Andrew Daniel: Right. Do you find that stillness from holding yourself in place or from surrender in peace and thinking?

Dean Pohlman: I find it from practice. I find it from practice. I find it from discipline, of practicing being still. Yeah. I don’t know if I felt anxious while I was standing here. I think I was curious about what was being perceived, but I didn’t feel curious about what was being perceived fearful for, you know, fearful of judgment. But I didn’t feel anxious.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, Great.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, I didn’t see that either. Good. And so you get to see that there are tremendous benefits from practicing it, from putting in the time, putting in the work. And that is absolutely important. We just want to uncover, you know, is is it from this fear place or is it from a peace place? And so we can do a lot of stuff from a dysfunctional place that really serves us right.

Andrew Daniel: It’s like working hard is is great. You know, it produces a lot of a lot of functional things. But are you mastering yourself in the process? You know, those are the things that we want to check in, right? Are you murdering yourself, sacrificing, doing what’s necessary? Absolutely. That’s very noble. But is it really necessary or is it just feeding into a story that it’s never enough or whatever that is?

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm.

Andrew Daniel: Right. So those are the things that we kind of want to just explore and take a look at. And none of it is right or wrong, and none of it’s good or bad. It’s just. Well, what what I’ve discovered watching people that make millions and millions and millions of dollars, they’re very, very successful in business is that the the pressure, the force motivation only goes so far.

Andrew Daniel: It has an upper limit. It can’t take you all the way. It can get you really far and it can get you a lot farther than being lazy and, you know, depressed and all of that stuff. But what got you here isn’t going to get you there. And so in order to have the highest levels of success in love, relationships, family, money, whatever it is that needs to come from surrender, it needs to come from trust and love and peace.

Andrew Daniel: Otherwise, if you even manage to get there, what happens is that you’ll take yourself out. You’ll feel like an imposter. You won’t trust. You’ll be afraid someone’s going to steal from you, take you out. So all of those things start just amplifying. The higher you get in your success. Mm hmm.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Makes sense.

Andrew Daniel: Great. All right, so let’s have you step back and we’ll start some of that movement.

Andrew Daniel: Great. So all I’m going to have you do is start shaking your hands. Just start shaking your hands, and I’ll tell you when to stop or change. Keiko Baker. Bigger. Yeah. So you can pause for a second. So when you were first starting, it’s very, very down. Kind of in the underworld, right? Sort. So if. So a lot of this work is symbolic, you know, our body doesn’t have words.

Andrew Daniel: It is a symbolic thing. Everything, you know, our subconscious works in symbols or dreams are all symbolic. And so if you kind of imagine the body, you know, from the the head and down to kind of the torso, the hips, you know, that’s sort of earth, right? We’re not talking about some esoteric stuff. This is just kind of metaphor symbolic.

Andrew Daniel: And then, you know, below the hips, that’s more the underworld. Right. And then above the head, you know, that’s maybe heaven. Right. Just conceptually. And so the feeling when you first started there was this relaxation, because obviously of the work you do, you’re very solid. You know, you’re very in your body. There’s there’s a density to you, which is great.

Andrew Daniel: That that’s that’s a good thing. There’s a lot of people that don’t have a density in there floating out into the ethers. And you’re like, Where are you? So you’re very here. The thing that we’re seeing, though, is that it’s very kind of depressed and it feels like a lot of that that that pressure, you know, there’s there’s something that comes along with that that is preventing levity.

Andrew Daniel: And so there’s there’s a certain there’s almost a certain feeling that you’re not allowed to play or to actually have real joy just just as a default. It doesn’t mean you never experience it doesn’t mean you can’t. But there’s just the certain feeling that that levity, that ease and grace isn’t, by default, accessible to you all the time.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm. Yeah, that. That’s true.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. So the next thing that happened is that you started to get bigger. And so the next level of getting big, that sort of second stage, as you move your hands up and down in and out, it also reveals what you’re taking in or giving out. And so the the hand movements are all symbolic, right? This is the the way you’re moving your hands is the way you’re managing your life.

Andrew Daniel: Right? This is how you’re actualizing stuff. So if you if you look on video for people listening, my hand is here kind of flaccid, right? It’s shut it looks. We would call this shut down. Now, imagine I had something in life that I wanted. Now, if this is the way symbolically I show up and relate to life, this is what I want.

Andrew Daniel: Right. My hand is just hitting the glass. It is dead. It is turned off. I can’t actually grab what I want. If my hand is open like this and I see what I want. I can come in and I can grab it if my hand is open. But it’s anxious and hysterical and afraid and nervous or freaking out.

Andrew Daniel: And I come over like this. I’m not going be able to grab it either. And there’s water going to spill everywhere. So that is a complete symbolic correlation between what is happening in the body and the results that we get in her life. So if we walk around shut down, we’re not going to be able to actualize herself in the way that we want for walking around anxious and freaking out.

Andrew Daniel: We’re not going to be able to hold on to those things in her life correlated to the hands. Now, every different part of the body represents something else. So hand’s pretty obvious. None of this stuff has to be metaphysical or esoteric, or we will. It can’t be if you want it to be. But it doesn’t have to be.

Andrew Daniel: You just think practically your feet. Right. What are your feet? Your feet connect you to the earth. They keep you standing. They move you around. And so the way that you have your feet are going to reflect how you are supported, how you stand your ground. All of these words and phrases that we use in our language, they’re very, very symbolic.

Andrew Daniel: They actually apply. When I watch clients moving around these things like, oh, this person looks like they’ve got a stick up their ass, or that person’s uptight or that person’s always leaning to the side or leaning on walls. Well, maybe they’re codependent. Maybe they cannot stand up on their own two feet. Right. Put your shoulders back. You know all of these things.

Andrew Daniel: When you actually do this therapeutic work, you see that many of them actually correlate to real life results. That’s where we get them from.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm. Wow. Okay.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. So that’s the second kind of phase that you did of getting bigger. Felt felt pretty good again. It was. It was it was a bit down. And so it’s not right or wrong or good and bad. There’s clients that I see that never let themselves go down. They’re right there are terrified of going down into that darkness for you.

Andrew Daniel: It feels like you live mostly down there in kind of that dark, intense and icy brooding. But, you know, it’s you know, it’s a bit of this like down in it.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I kind of laugh because I do spend that was what, you know, I have you know, in the past I have journaled about like, well, what am I going to do to. How am I find enjoying life? Where’s is play? And a lot of what I default to with my free time is, okay, I’m going to go journal.

Dean Pohlman: I’m going to go walk in this reflection. I’m going to go work out. I’m going to go, you know, I’m going to go do sauna or I’m going to do cold plunge and work on my breathing and you know, there is not. Yeah. Play is more difficult to access.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. And so what we’ve talked about so far, it makes little sense. Right. Because play doesn’t lead to the performance, you know, validation, you know, all of that pressure that you have on yourself. And so it’s kind of in the way that you have it set up in your mind, in your body. It’s in opposition to it.

Andrew Daniel: And so it’s it’s almost like going into the play. You’re abandoning all of that stuff and it’s going to fall apart. It’s going to get taken from you. You would never have had it any of this kind of stuff.

Dean Pohlman: Right. Even though intellectually I completely understand that play is exactly for overall health and and even Yes, even all those things that are very important to my my lower self.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. But, but just notice what you said. Play is important to overall health. This is about.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: Right. It’s like. It’s like learning to dance, you know, for some personal development reason. Oh, my business is going to get better if I start dancing. It’s like, Yeah, sure. All right. But dance to dance. Right. And when you dance, it’s not like, Oh, I’m going to dance in order to improve myself. Is you removing all the play from dance?

Andrew Daniel: And so it’s like you just literally remove the play from playing.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: Because it always has to go back to how do I get value out of this? How does this improve myself so I can perform better? Now there’s probably nuance and other stuff, but just to keep it simple here. So all of these things are a threat to that ego story, right? To that whole myth. And so a story is essentially just, you know, some narrative we’ve created about what we’ve experienced in the past or about how life works.

Andrew Daniel: Right. We have some experience. Somebody tells us something, we see something, we have a trauma, we experience these things. And instead of just reporting the details, my dad was abusive and hard on me. Okay, great. It’s my dad was abusive, hard on me or he left and he was never around. And so that means acts about me. I’m not lovable.

Andrew Daniel: In order to have my dad’s love and approval, I have to be harder on myself, whatever it is. I’m not saying that’s necessarily you. Just as an example. Right. So we create these narratives. We create these stories around what happened, and all of them have some emotional component to it. And so a mythology is an overarching kind of archetypical story.

Andrew Daniel: Right. So think rather than a scene in a movie. The theme of the movie and a lot of these get passed down generationally in our family through cultures and societies. So certain societies, cultures, families, they have certain mythologies, right? Oh, we’re the so-and-so’s. We’re like this. Right. Oh, this never happens. Oh, no. Well, Hortons do this or, you know, there’s all of these these narratives about the family and who they are and and what it means and what’s possible and what’s not possible and why things are the way they are.

Andrew Daniel: And we do this to try to understand, to figure out the world. The problem is almost all of them are inaccurate. They’re not reality. They’re not the truth. And so what happens instead of getting true results and living in reality, we live in distorted fantasies, Right? We live in these distorted realities that say, if I’m not hard and forceful on myself, I’m going to lose this stuff and I’ll never get here.

Andrew Daniel: Oh, if I have play, I can’t just play. I have to turn it into this or else, you know, whatever. We mold our experience of reality through the lenses of these stories. And so in this work, one of the things that makes it different than most stuff out there, like positive psychology, is we’re not spinning a better story.

Andrew Daniel: We’re not turning it into a positive. We’re stopping the stories altogether. It’s not, oh, you feel bad because of this and it’s okay to do that because of this? No, it’s just you feel bad. All right, Feel it. Yeah, but then I need. No. Stop. Nope. None of that. You just report the details. You just report what you feel.

Andrew Daniel: You feel it without whipping up all of these justifications and stories and narratives. Even better ones, positive ones. They’re still not real. They’re better. Right. You know, reframing positive. You’re going to have a better life, But it’s still not reality. It’s still not true. And so the closer you can get to reality and the truth, the more accurate life that you live.

Andrew Daniel: Which means that when you go to take an action, you get the action that you expect rather than something completely different. You go up to someone you think you’re being kind and generous to them. They treat you like crap and that happens every week. It’s probably not them, it’s you. And so what’s happening? It is in your mind.

Andrew Daniel: You think you’re being one way, but in your body the reality is a completely different way.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Andrew Daniel: And so if you can find the truth and rewire that, you’re going to get much better results in your life.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm. Yeah. Nothing to. Right. Yeah. So, listening.

Andrew Daniel: Perfect. So the third. The third getting bigger that you did with your handshaking, That’s where things changed because that second layer worked. The second one, it felt good. You were going up down there was in and out. You were still kind of in that underworld feeling. And then when you started to get into maybe the upper world into kind of the the everyday world, what happened was you started.

Andrew Daniel: You looked down. You were you were staring down. You know, you lost your vision and all of the things you were doing, it was dumping it. So at that third level of getting bigger, you started dumping everything, throwing it to the ground, and you were looking right at where you were throwing it down. So that tells us that you can get a little bit bigger.

Andrew Daniel: But once you get to another level of bigness and your intimacy and your business relationships, then it starts. You start throwing it away. You start dumping it, taking yourself out in certain ways.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Andrew Daniel: So let’s have you scoot back and we’ll do that again so you can feel it and see it.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I guess I was. I was just thinking. It felt like as I’m shaking my hands, I didn’t feel like I was shaking my hands up. I felt like I was throwing my hands down.

Andrew Daniel: Exactly. Yup. And that feeling translates to imagine you had dollars in your hands. Imagine you had love in your hands. That’s what you’re doing with it. Great. So try that again. Yeah. Do what you were doing before. Don’t try to change it just so we can get that reference. So get bigger. Go bigger.

Andrew Daniel: Okay, Bigger. Yeah. Right. So bigger. Even bigger.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. Okay, so this is really interesting. Wow. This is amazing. So normally, what we normally what we would expect is that, you. It would just intensify the thing that you were doing. It would just get bigger and bigger. But it completely changes. Once you get to a certain point of bigness, you completely disconnect.

Andrew Daniel: And so it it almost feels like you’re not even yeah, you’re not even here anymore. So if someone’s in front of you people watching this, you can see that when you get that big, you’re you’re you’re up here and it’s it’s not connected to anything real. And so it is almost like there’s this this break point where you go from, well, this is reality and it has to feel like this.

Andrew Daniel: And then up here, this is just fantasy land where I’m making $100 million. Yeah.

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Andrew Daniel: You do you get that sensation?

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. It felt totally different. It could be because the shoulders annoyed me right now and that, like, if I lift my arm in a certain way, it didn’t feel good. So it could be because I’m, you know, it just didn’t feel good to do that. But yeah, it felt like it felt like there was this, but it felt like there was like suddenly this permission to like, okay, like go crazy, do it.

Dean Pohlman: Like, just be totally different from what you usually are and like, put your arms up high and wave and like, you look silly and nobody cares.

Andrew Daniel: And yes, so. So that’s a really interesting too. So that tells us that how you normally are is suppressing all of that.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm. Right.

Andrew Daniel: That’s not your normal way of being of just do what you want. Be silly. Nobody cares.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, that’s for that’s for.

Dean Pohlman: That’s. Yeah, that’s for, uh. It’s for dancing. That’s for dancing.

Andrew Daniel: What’s dancing for?

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Dancing is for overall wellness. We discussed this.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. No, but what’s the story? You know, what is. You know who dances? Does. Does it mean dancing? Says full business, father, Dance or not.

Dean Pohlman: People who are who? Who? People who can dance. Dance. People who can dance well, dance. People who have control over their bodies and can and can look cool in public while they do it and have, you know, the skills to do it. Those people dance.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. Is that you?

Dean Pohlman: When I was younger and I really could dance. Yeah. And I used to do it all the time. Yeah. But there was always a self-conscious behind it. There was always a there was always a like. Okay, like as soon as I start feeling cool doing this, I’m not going to dance. There’s always like, there’s always like a, it’s always a performance.

Dean Pohlman: Even if I’m like, up, there’s always a performance. It’s never like I just doing it for fun. It’s always like a performance.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, and that’s exactly what we talked about in the beginning, about the way that image, right? Managing your image. That’s exactly what that is to, you know, trying to be cool, looking this way, performing. So yeah, there’s, there’s this huge performance myth for you, whether it’s performing for a certain image or to have value, you know, And this is all something that is, you know, a coping mechanism, you know, to keep you safe, right?

Andrew Daniel: You know, so you’re not rejected so you don’t die, you know, so keep your relationships, you know, so you have all this stuff, but you can see it’s not based in joy, it’s not based in fun. You know, it’s based on survival.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Dean Pohlman: Well, good.

Andrew Daniel: Oh, great. But what’s interesting, too, is that you see that there’s that disconnect. And what when you let yourself go, there, you went there, but you lost the connection to the Earth. You know, you lost connection to that actually being a real thing. It was like in order to go there, you have to disconnect from this dream and go to some other place.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: Great. All right, So scoot back.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. Don’t. Don’t have any fun here. Right. You know, don’t. Okay, so the next thing that we’re going to have you do is the archetypes. And so what I discovered doing this work and as far as I know, you know, this is this is an original kind of discovery. You know, this is an out anywhere that I’ve seen is that the body has its own somatic archetypes.

Andrew Daniel: So, for example, if I say banana or elephant or grandma, there’s an image, a sound, a taste, a smell, a feeling that you have in your mind. Right. Elephant. Oh, you know, there’s a sound, there’s a shape, an image, all this stuff. That’s what’s called in psychology and internal representation right in our air. This is just how we internally represent some concept.

Andrew Daniel: Well, what I discovered is that not only do we have an internal representation in our mind, but our body has its own somatic representation of these concepts. And it’s symbolic. It’s beyond words. And with this is with this discovery. Why that’s important is because I found out that it’s not how we see things in our mind that correlates to the results.

Andrew Daniel: It’s how we represent it into our body that correlates with results. So, for example, if in your mind you think you’re a happy go lucky light person and then we see this depression in your body, the reality is closer to that depression than it is to the image in your mind. Does that make sense? Yeah. So this is a way to bypass years and years of coaching and therapy and talking about this where you’re just in your head discussing these things.

Andrew Daniel: Instead, we look at the body because the body tells the truth, right? The body doesn’t lie, especially when you start moving. Now I can stand here and pose and not move. And it could appear a certain way, right. Posing for a photo, this kind of thing. But what do we call those people who pose? Yes. Yet posers. Right.

Andrew Daniel: And so when you start moving, you can’t fake that, Right? There’s thousands and thousands of movements going on in each second compared to a pose. And so there’s no way to sustain faking that. So all of that data leaks out. All of that truth leaks out through the movement. So what we’re going to do here, we’re just going to do a few of these archetypes just so you can get a feel for it.

Andrew Daniel: And what that what that looks like. Okay. So the instructions are, I’m going to give you an archetype and what you’re going to do, rather than going into your head and thinking about it, you’re going to go into your body, find the feeling of this archetype and through movement, express this archetype in your body without speaking or making sounds.

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Andrew Daniel: Right. So you’re going to go down, find the feeling of this archetype what your body wants to express. And through movement, you’re going to express that without talking. Okay.

Andrew Daniel: All right. And you’re going to keep doing it until I tell you to stop. So show me giving. Let’s have your eyes open.

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. So keep doing this. And so what? We’re. Again, normally we would just film this and then replay it so you would see it on video. But the feeling here. So this is accurate. So this does feel like giving. So it’s not a distortion. You know, there’s not a reverse wiring, but the feeling is that it’s never enough.

Andrew Daniel: You’re just constantly giving more and more and more and more. So. So do it again. See if you can see that as you move.

Dean Pohlman: I felt it.

Andrew Daniel: Okay. Okay, great. Yeah, great. So you can. So does that show up in your life?

Dean Pohlman: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: You can come talk about.

Dean Pohlman: There’s never. Yeah, all the time. No, I’ve never do enough. Or, you know, I never knew would do enough at home. I never do enough for my wife. Never do enough for my business. I never do enough for myself. I don’t do enough of the self-care that I don’t want to do. I don’t you know, I don’t I don’t read enough.

Dean Pohlman: I don’t I don’t give enough. I don’t practice these things enough. I. Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. Great. Okay. Yeah. And, and, and so the, the interesting part of that is that that comes from inside, right? It doesn’t feel like the world around you is saying, Dean, how come you should be more giving? You should do more in your business. You know, it really feels like that comes from some internal standard.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm. I think I look for the validation of that in certain places, You know, like I can think of. I can think of my wife being, you know, a new mom and I can think of all the things that I do. And then and then you know, her, regardless of how much I do, she’s still going to be you know, she’s still going to be stressed because she’s the new mom.

Dean Pohlman: But I to me, it’s like I’m not doing enough. And now you’re unhappy and it’s my fault. And, you know, this is my you know, I should have done more. I can be doing more. Let me just do more, you know. But it’s always it’s never done like I’ve done it. I’m good. Like now you’re happier. Now I can be content with myself.

Dean Pohlman: It’s like I have to keep. Yeah. Giving more, giving more, you know, trying to recharge myself so I can give more, trying to better myself. So I don’t keep giving more.

Andrew Daniel: Okay, perfect. All right, now scoot back. And this time. So. So do that giving thing again that you were just doing the same way. Okay? Now, this time, do it in a way that it is enough that it worked, that you finally did enough. Eyes open yet. So you feel how the hands drop and you leave it out.

Andrew Daniel: You know, the feeling here is that, you know, you’re waiting for them to receive it. You know, there’s there’s a little bit of hopelessness in here.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm.

Andrew Daniel: Right. The hands just drop like, Oh, I thought this finally would be enough, but they don’t want it or they’re not receiving it or, oh, maybe this wasn’t the thing. So now do it this time and and do it. And so show me. Give. So show me giving. It’s enough. The person validating and receiving it. So what are you feeling here?

Dean Pohlman: Uh, sense of calmness, sense of peace, sense of sense of. Now I can be open to now I can be open to love now. I can be open to appreciation. Is there more?

Andrew Daniel: Well, just notice how easy that could be.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm. Well, initially, when you ask me to do it and then the first time I tried that, not the first time when I was giving in, like I had to keep giving. But the second time you told me to do it, I felt like I was giving. And then I smiled, like, you know, just like, naturally, without thinking about it, I was smiling because I’m like, Now I’m giving enough.

Dean Pohlman: Now I’m giving enough now it’s enough now. I don’t have to, you know, to go back and find more like I have enough and I’m giving it. And this is making me happy and this is just bringing me, you know, unfiltered joy to be able to give enough.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. It’s the most. You’ve smiled on this whole call.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, well, I have. Yeah. So I guess I have my certain habits of how I do phone calls. Yeah. So.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, well, you know how you do one thing. So you do everything right? Yeah. So, you know, this is showing up else elsewhere in your life. And so this shows you to that one of those ways of being leads to joy. And one of them doesn’t.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm.

Dean Pohlman: Doing less or it feels like doing less.

Andrew Daniel: Um, but. But doing it. Yeah. From that place where it actually is enough, right? It’s the enough ness, right? That’s. That’s the important part.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So weird. My, I feel like my demeanor is totally changed from the start.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, Yeah. The shifts can happen that fast.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Andrew Daniel: So scoot back and just practice it a little bit. See if you can find that joy place again. You’re giving it and it is enough. And they’re receiving you in. If you want to make it more intense, you know, think back. Imagine that person, usually a parent or someone like that, where you never felt like it was enough.

Andrew Daniel: And now do it this time and just imagine them looking at you, being grateful and saying, That is enough. You are enough while you move.

Andrew Daniel: Okay, now scoot back. We’re going to do one more thing with this. All right. So after you did this with this person, you know, you’re imagining it. Show me, show me being received. Show me being fully received and accepted.

Dean Pohlman: I don’t know.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. Okay, good. Come up. So you know what we’re seeing here? You know, there’s there’s a you know, there’s this fear of intimacy around us, right? Because when you’re intimate, you have to be vulnerable. And you say, well, here I am to be received. And, you know, it’s up to the other person to receive you or not. And that’s a very vulnerable.

Andrew Daniel: And so there’s a, you know, an avoidance of intimacy because you’re being you just terrified.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, that’s what I’m told. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. So all of that through just some, some simple movements and as in you got to see not only did it reveal it, but you could change the way that you moved, you could change the way you showed up in your body. You can make a new choice in your body movements and in the way you felt and related to things.

Andrew Daniel: And it actually shifted how you felt and it actually made a change. You actually could see how that new way of moving and being can translate to something practical and applicable in life.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: So there you go. That’s that’s a very, very simple taste of what this approach looks like.

Dean Pohlman: Well, yeah, it’s. It’s powerful. It’s, uh. It is. It’s a practice. It’s definitely, uh, different than talking about how you feel versus, like, feeling how you feel. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, you know, some of those things I could have, you know, I feel like some of things I knew because I’ve been, you know, I think I’ve been doing therapy consistently for about five years now.

Dean Pohlman: So some of that, you know, I was like, well, duh, I got to tell you that. But like the, you know, being down, you know, feeling and like, being up here was not being myself that was that tracked. But it was not something that I had kind of realized. So.

Andrew Daniel: So to remember, too, I’ve, I mean, we don’t know each other in person. I don’t know anything about your life. So the thing to keep in mind is, of course, you know a lot of this stuff yourself, but how do I in a few minutes of just watching you move, you know, all of these ways that you’re relating to your life?

Andrew Daniel: That’s the thing to realize, like, oh.

Dean Pohlman: Which means.

Andrew Daniel: That go ahead.

Dean Pohlman: I was going to say that means that even though, like I do have, you know, I can think about all my relationships. So it doesn’t matter what I’m saying or doing, but if my constant body language is this instead of what I’m trying to say, then that means there’s this huge disconnect and I’m not getting the connections that I’m trying or like I’m I’m not connecting the way that I’m intending to.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. And and the thing you just did here where you just did an example of, like, being up here, you actually smiled. You actually had a little fun. Now, you know, it’s not rooted here, but it was much lighter. And it’s like even when I just gave you this feedback, there was this little blip of joy. And so you, you know how to get to this light fun place.

Andrew Daniel: You just don’t let yourself go there, you know, because you’ve you’ve distorted it to be something that it’s not. Hmm. You know, you’ve said, oh, that’s not me. Who I am is I’m this person. And, you know, in that process, you abandon yourself, you’re all of it. You’re all of it.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I think there’s this, uh. Yeah. I mean, there’s this constant, uh, kind of constant need to appear to be this very, you know, confident, strong, productive person. And that makes joy. It makes play. It makes it makes letting my guard down, not just in a sense of like, well, I think of letting my guard down in terms of letting down this level of intensity because I need this in order to be productive and feel valued and feel like I can continue to give.

Dean Pohlman: But because of that constant need. I’m not able to go into a place where I can easily give and receive love or just feel relaxed and feel like I can be totally myself without, you know, being scared of judgment. Somehow. So, yeah. So there you go. Cool. Hmm.

Dean Pohlman: So how do you go ahead. If you had something else you wanted to say.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. No, I was going to say that I encountered something very similar and myself in my business where I’ve been doing this work for a very long time, and I’m not very old in comparison to other people that are teaching things. So, you know, I was doing this stuff in my twenties and I was teaching sexuality, I was teaching, you know, this kind of stuff.

Andrew Daniel: And I had this story, this belief that people have to take me seriously now because because is this kid, you know, that is teaching this advanced stuff, who’s going to take him seriously. So it was just like I didn’t feel like people were taking me seriously. I would write posts online and people would be like, Oh, and it’s like to hours of like with, you know, the same kind of things that I put into my book.

Andrew Daniel: And I was like, But nobody is taking it seriously. And so that translated to doing videos and being with clients, and I felt like I had to suppress that play, that silliness and fun and be serious so people would take me seriously and pay me thousands of dollars. I’m like, Nobody is going to pay me $20,000 if I’m laughing and smiling and making jokes and having fun.

Andrew Daniel: That’s not work. That’s not valuable. People don’t value having fun. They doing the hard, intense work. And so I realized this was a problem. And so I, I do this work myself, You know, that’s how I’ve developed this. I’ve done this process myself, and I do it every day. I live it. And so I had an a girlfriend at the time fill me and the prompt was, you know, show me being on stage teaching the stuff.

Andrew Daniel: And so I started doing it. It was like, all right, so sort of somatic is this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you this is really important, you know, pay attention. And, and then I look at the video like the size of fucking square like this isn’t fun to watch. And it was like, Oh my God, I’m suppressing all of my personality.

Andrew Daniel: Everything that makes me, me to to have this image up, this narcissistic image up. So people see me a certain way to take me seriously and professionally so that they pay me money. The reality was nobody wanted to work with me because I was a downer.

Dean Pohlman: Mm hmm.

Andrew Daniel: And I said, Oh, my God, I’m just suppressing all of my personality. In order to have this image of what I think people want. But what I think people want is a true it’s not real. And so that you know what you’re experiencing here in my own way, I’ve gone through and I just realized, oh my gosh, I’m I’m abandoning myself to appear a certain way in order to get certain needs met, in order to be accepted and appreciated and validated in certain ways.

Andrew Daniel: But then guess what happens? Even if that image gets validated and loved and it’s enough, it’s still not really me. And so it’s like, All right, everybody loves this serious. Andrew It doesn’t, right? I, I end up being in this imposter syndrome kind of place. It doesn’t nourish me. It doesn’t fulfill me because it’s an image. It’s not who I really am.

Andrew Daniel: I’ve had to abandon, depressed and suppress parts of myself in order to be loved and accepted. And it may keep you alive and safe in a short term. But in the long term, you know, it just it just wipes you out. It crushes your soul. And so a lot of what I’m seeing with you and hearing you know, you say today resonates with that same experience with myself.

Andrew Daniel: Hmm.

Dean Pohlman: So I just keep doing exactly what I’m doing. Yes. And have a major breakdown in 5 to 10 years or never and then just die of some related chronic. Yes. Inflammatory disease that. Okay, so either change.

Andrew Daniel: Sounds like a.

Dean Pohlman: Plan or I do that. Okay. I’ll just I’ll just keep doing what I’m doing. Sounds. Yeah, sounds easy.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah. And meanwhile, you can hope for a different result.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I’ll just keep going for some reason. And hope. Yeah, hope it works out. So what are some. You know, I don’t want to you know, I don’t want to make this conversation take too long. But what, you know, we just going through some of those things, what is the work that. Well, I guess let’s just talk about me here.

Dean Pohlman: But what is the work that I can continue to do to practice this? Or what would be the work that you you know, what are the what are the drills or the exercises sort of speak or. Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, yeah, none of that because notice other words, words, work drills, exercises.

Dean Pohlman: What is the practice? How do I play with this?

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, yeah. How do you play with this? Yeah, how can you play with this?

Dean Pohlman: How do I be happy with this? How do I. How do I do this? Happiness practice or I don’t know what the word. Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s just play right. I think just play that turning things into play that that what, what is happening right here is one of the things that you can start doing the work is that throughout your day, instead of referring to all this as work and the drills and how do I force this into being okay, how can I play with this?

Andrew Daniel: Now, this is this is an important distinction here. If I was working with somebody else and they never took anything seriously and they were whimsical and their life was at functional, whimsical to a dysfunctional degree, right. They were just in their head or everything was a joke. They never took anything seriously. I would be giving them the opposite advice right.

Andrew Daniel: Because they’re way over. In the other extreme, you’re way over in this extreme and we want you to get to that harmonious, peaceful place. So for people listening, this isn’t a one size fits all advice, and all the feedback I give and all the practices are based on the person you know, they’re bespoke to that person because well of just what I said, I think it’s self evident.

Andrew Daniel: And so this is something that I definitely think would be very helpful for you to do, is start just reframing stuff. If you just start to look through things through the lens of play. Now the thing to to that you’re going to want to address while you do that is reshift shifting your idea of play because right now if you play, you’re going to avoid doing that because.

Andrew Daniel: It feels like you’re going to lose all this other stuff right? And so that’s going to be probably the most important thing. It may take some time. You know, there’s probably some things you have to go into and penetrate and heal and.

Dean Pohlman: You know.

Andrew Daniel: Address with that. But once you can do that, then play becomes something you want to do rather than something you’re you don’t want to do. The the other thing is that I would suggest start doing is a lot of opposite stuff. We didn’t do this here on this call, but one of the things is to do things the opposite way and if you’re normally the down here person, start being the up here person and you can do that both practicing the movement and figuring out how that translates literally into life, right?

Andrew Daniel: So the down here dean versus the up here. Dean And eventually by practicing that, it’s not an up here, down here. It’s just this is Dean. Dean can go through the full range of movement all the way high, all the way low. And so it’s not just being in one place, positive psychology only being up here. It’s about having access to the whole range when you need it.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So less, less hip dancing, more. I don’t know if this is other stuff.

Andrew Daniel: I would. Yeah. Okay. Well, this is this is interesting too. When you said that, that’s exactly what we saw in your handshaking. So you, you disconnect from down here in order to be up here. Not. No, don’t do that. You stay connected here. Stay with the hip dancing and then add in this range. So you have you have this is a dichotomy.

Andrew Daniel: That’s why when a schizophrenic said you got it. So that’s why what you did that when you got too big and you jumped to that place, it felt like we lost you down here. So you want to stay? Yes. Stay in the hips.

Dean Pohlman: So I need to integrate my low and my there’s no sustain. It’s like there’s.

Andrew Daniel: Exactly because you have that split, you have that kind of dichotomy. It’s an either or. And so you bring those together. You may start by doing it up here just so you can get comfortable with it and then have a both. So you can be up here, you know, and down here. But up here you’re more visible. Maybe you’re a little more silly.

Andrew Daniel: You know, you can be playful, whatever it is, but you don’t abandon the sexuality, you don’t abandon the groundedness, right? You can stay masculine in and still be silly. That’s something I learned the hard way that took me 15 years to learn. I write about that in my book where I suppressed my smile. It felt too girly and silly because I thought it was a cool.

Andrew Daniel: All the cool guys were like, Oh, I’m cool and aloof. And then I realized, I was just suppressing my beauty. And then all of a sudden I go through that process. I have women complimenting all the time about, Oh, I love your smile and I’m masculine and they’re having fun, they’re being silly, I’m being silly, they’re getting turned on.

Andrew Daniel: I’m like, Wait a minute, this isn’t supposed to work. But it was silly in the context of being a powerful, masculine man. It was it being silly because I’m just up here and completely disconnected from my lower body. Right? You can just hear my difference in there. I’m down here, but I’m being silly and playful is being silly and playful down here.

Andrew Daniel: It’s still having access to all of this, not abandoning this and going either or. Took me 15 years to learn that.

Dean Pohlman: Wow. I mean, hey, but that’s it. That’s a big lesson, you know? Yeah, that I mean, that resonates. I think that was what I was trying to say, but I didn’t know how to say. Yeah, I mean, there, there, yeah. I mean I think it’s, it’s, it would be totally What’s the word I’m looking for. It would, we would be living in an alternate reality to say that as a society we do not have homophobia.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah right. So like if we don’t want to be perceived as too feminine and we don’t want to be perceived in that way, then that means that we’re only going to show ourselves in a masculine way.

Andrew Daniel: And it’s usually going to be distorted. They have to come together. So this is the thing to to understand is that it’s not just about becoming a masculine man. It’s about being a masculine man with an integrated feminine. It’s not about just being a feminine woman. It’s about being a feminine woman with an integrated masculine. Because internally we have both polarities, internally in the body, different, different sides of the body have different polarities, right?

Andrew Daniel: So the right side is the yang, the masculine in the left side is the in the feminine, different parts of the body have these to them. And so what happens is if we’re disconnected and dissociated or rejecting one of those. So if I’m in if I’m suppressing my feminine, I’m going to move my hands and it’s going to be like this, right?

Andrew Daniel: So this side is going to be moving a lot. And this just going to be dead. So all of that actually gets translated through the movements as well. So how someone actually is masculine or feminine, the way they relate to that in themselves and in their partners. All of this comes through the of somatic movement as well.

Dean Pohlman: So I have a question for you. So when you look at people who are when you look at my guts, just like let’s just pick on like the one of the alpha alpha community for a second here. When you look at those guys who are like, you know, who have whatever it may be, whatever platform they are on and they’re trying to look super tough, do you look at that and you’re like able to look at their body language and be like, Oh yeah, this is not like, this doesn’t make any sense.

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, 100%.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah.

Andrew Daniel: And then you see, so then you get to see is it an image or are they really in relationship with their masculine. I’ll give you an example. That fucking blew my mind. I’ll never forget the day. It was so confusing. I remember being doing this work in a group and however we got there, I started to let myself feel very feminine.

Andrew Daniel: I was like, All right, this feels very gay I feel super feminine right now. My legs feel like woman legs. I mean, I just felt just really and I was very vulnerable, very uncomfortable. And I feel I felt very feminine without prompting, all of the women in the group, they all were like, Wow. Andrew you look so masculine.

Andrew Daniel: I’m like, one of them, like Looney Tunes character, What they’re like, Yeah, I mean, you look so sexy, Emasculate said. I feel so feminine, though. Well, you look really masculine. And it was just a it was a complete turning point in my life. I’m so grateful for that experience. It changed everything for me because I realized that they they have to come together, right?

Andrew Daniel: If you’re suppressing one and avoiding one, the other one isn’t able to show up in the proper way because I was so afraid of being feminine. I shut that feminine down and the result was I actually looked effeminate.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Andrew Daniel: And so, yeah, it was just amazing how we can get these reverse firings. That’s what it’s called, a reverse wiring, where when you feel one way, but it looks and you get the results in the world that are the complete opposite. So when I see these people that are doing this alpha stuff, a lot of them aren’t really in relationship with their masculine, right?

Andrew Daniel: Maybe they’re feminine, shut down, but their masculine is all distorted, right? Because masculine isn’t necessarily what all these guys think to them trying to be masculine. They’re shutting themselves down. If all these guards up, they’re putting a narcissist stick image out. They’re not feeling their in their head. None of that helps you be an alpha male. None of that is leading, that’s not dominant, that’s domineering, that’s not leading.

Andrew Daniel: It’s dictating. So with without the yin aspect integrated, the yang becomes tyrannical. It becomes, you know, abusive, distorted. Now, for a lot of men in the world, that’s a better choice than being passive and submitting and being weak and having no spine and being a doormat. Right? So it’s very attractive to a certain kind of man who’s been rejected, who’s been abused, who has no spine, who who’s weak, who doesn’t have that confidence.

Andrew Daniel: It looks like a much better way of living than all of that pain and suffering and sadness and pathetic ness. But they’re both suffering. That’s the thing. The other one’s suffering in a very different way. And I’ve done both right. I was that nice guy and then I became the jerk, the bad boy. Oh, well, I’m having sex.

Andrew Daniel: Girls like this better, but there’s no intimacy, there’s no depth, there’s no trust. Right? It reached an upper limit really quick because of the things that get you there. Don’t get you to the the full thing.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm. So I want to ask. I want to ask you a question. So, you know, I. I think, you know, I think we’ve all gone we’ve all gone through high school. Not all of us. Many of us have gone to high school. And, you know, I think, you know, boys tease each other a certain way. And, you know, you talk about in your book how you were bullied a lot and, you know, your strong reaction to not wanting to be perceived feminine or gay.

Dean Pohlman: What was. Yes, I’m I’m making you be vulnerable now with. Yeah. You know, what was what was your experience with that?

Andrew Daniel: What part specifically.

Dean Pohlman: We talked about how.

Andrew Daniel: You didn’t teased for a long time.

Dean Pohlman: Right. You well you talked about how you spent years trying to be overly masculine in response to that. Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t know what’s what’s the what was one of the most well, if there’s one part of that that you could share is some significant aspect of that or experience that you could share from that, what was the or you uncovered the you know, you talked about you kind of uncovered the process of that.

Dean Pohlman: But what was you know, was there anything else from that that you could share that you think it’d be helpful?

Andrew Daniel: Yes. So why did I do that? Well, I didn’t want to feel something right. I didn’t want to feel pathetic. I didn’t want to feel like a loser. I didn’t want to be unlovable. And really the biggest thing was a story of being unwanted, of being undesirable. And so that affected everything in my life. It affected my intimate life, Right.

Andrew Daniel: Because I did all of this stuff to try to be more desirable. All right. I learned how to give better orgasms. I learned how to, you know, seduce you know, I learned how to run a business, make money, like I learned all of these things and it was kind of like building up a CV. I was building up a resume, a CV of how amazing.

Andrew Daniel: I was. And so I could just meet people and women to be like, See, look, I’m desirable because feeling under is undesirable most of my life socially. So sucked, you know, all that rejection, that humiliation, just because I had warts on my fingers when I was a kid. And even after they were removed, I just kept that story going, you know?

Andrew Daniel: So being five years old, six years old and feeling like a leper, you have no idea why. It’s never been an issue before. There’s some bumps on your hands and now it means all this stuff, and this is why I’m unlovable. And I took that personal. And, you know, I’ll be the first to admit that I use that to a victim.

Andrew Daniel: I didn’t realize it when I was six years old, but I did, you know, I was a victim and I kept that victim mentality and I felt sorry for myself for the next 20 years. And so in order to get to the place where I wasn’t doing this anymore, I had to let myself go into feeling undesired rebel.

Andrew Daniel: I had to go into my own shadow and say, All right, I’m avoiding this. It’s running my life. Well, let’s go into it all right. Let’s go into the narcissism. Let’s go into the self-loathing. Self-hatred, right. The loneliness. God, there was a lot of loneliness, you know? And I remember watching porn and feeling, you know, horny watch porn, you know, finish and feeling worse about myself.

Andrew Daniel: It’s like, wow, I’m so fucking pathetic. I can’t even have a real girlfriend. You know, I have to do this here. They just made it mean all of this stuff. And then I used it to beat myself up. I used it to hurt myself and to validate why it was a pathetic piece of shit. And so, yeah, so going through all of that stuff and not just dealing with it, but going into it all right, I would literally stand up and do the movement stuff that you just did.

Andrew Daniel: Variations of it, and go into all of those things, you know, show me being pathetic, loser, show me being unlovable, going to all of these places so I could face it and penetrate it and heal it. And so it would no longer run my life. Because if there’s something here that you don’t want to feel that you’re avoiding, guess what?

Andrew Daniel: It’s going to direct you this way, right? You don’t want to go here, so it’s going to direct you this way. Guess what? That’s directing your life. This thing you don’t want to do is put is directing you in this direction. But when you can go into it and penetrate, it dissolves. Well, now what? Well, now you get to choose 360.

Andrew Daniel: You can get to just pick anywhere that you want to go. So this isn’t directing your life anymore. And so having that pressure you put on herself, on yourself, all of these things that we do there, directing our life into one path, maybe it’s a path you want to go, That’s fine, but I’d rather go into this, penetrate this, not be at the effect of it anymore, and then just get to choose, Oh, do I want to live a life like this?

Andrew Daniel: Or do I want to live life like this or live a life like this or like this or like this? So it’s all it’s all about bringing the choice back. There’s no should or should. It’s right or wrongs, good or bad. It’s just about choice. And then you can choose to do things that work that are more functional or less functional.

Andrew Daniel: You can live a life that with intimacy or without intimacy, you can choose to move in a direction from your choice, but you accept the consequences. Consequences, right? You’re responsible for those choices. And yeah, that just put me on this journey of healing. A lot of that rejection and self-hatred and loathing and despair, hopelessness, loneliness. And it took time, you know?

Andrew Daniel: It did took time. But I did get through it, you know, I did healing, but it was not fun.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, well, thanks for thanks for sharing with me and us. So. All right, really quick, because I thought I forgot. I forgot that. But we just practiced the same movements that we’ve gone through. I just keep practicing those archetypes.

Andrew Daniel: Well, I would play with the ones that were different.

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Andrew Daniel: Right. You know, so the one where you started to feel joy, you know, the ones that felt uncomfortable and not normal, those are the ones you want to start playing with and practicing, you know, So, so when you can give and it be enough and you’re fulfilled and they’re fulfilled and you practice that, you do that until that becomes your new normal, right?

Andrew Daniel: That becomes your natural way of being. And then the other one feels like, Oh, this, this sucks. Like it’s never enough. Rather, Oh, I just have to do this because this is the only thing I know. So you’re literally learning a new way of being in the world just by practicing these movements in a different way. All of that translates to practical, real life stuff.

Andrew Daniel: This isn’t just theoretical stuff. This so insanely practical because you’re doing it in your body and that correlates with real results in your real life.

Dean Pohlman: So what are the big actions that we do, whether symbolically or or actually give, receive? What are the what else?

Andrew Daniel: Yeah, give, receive. Let’s see. Well, it’s it’s a lot you know, there’s there’s a lot of archetypes. Let’s just talk about the things that came up here. Right. All right. So give and receive being accepted, being playful, having fun. Right. If I, if I. If I asked you, I mean, you know, we’re we don’t have a lot of time here, but if you were doing a session with me, if you were a client.

Andrew Daniel: Right, I would say, all right, show me having fun. Show me playful. All right, we’ll do the opposite. Do it differently. Find a new way to move you know, those are all ones for you that I would have, I would suggest, because those are relevant to you. There’s other ones like making money. Spending money. Right? People coming in.

Andrew Daniel: All right, Well, what does it look like to make money? Spending money. And you’d be amazed. I mean, working, doing this, hundreds and hundreds of people you start seeing patterns like, oh, wow, when people can’t pay their bills, This is the kind of thing that they do. This is how this feels. People that are making tens of millions of dollars, they’re successful.

Andrew Daniel: They do something and feel completely different. Those people.

Dean Pohlman: Oh, right.

Andrew Daniel: And so by doing the movements, you can not only reveal where you’re at, but you can start moving in a new way that is more functional. So we’ve have people come in, they have people come in at 1 to 3 zeros to their income, get just stuff out of the job, offers deals. We’re not talking about business strategy.

Andrew Daniel: It’s all about here. I have this lady, she read my book. She hasn’t done any work. She’s just read my book. She’s lost £40. She’s all off all of her medications just from making new choices and realizations from the book. So this stuff is insanely practical and it shows up in all areas of life. Remember, you do one thing, so you do everything.

Andrew Daniel: So it doesn’t matter what the topic is, it doesn’t matter what the topic is. You know, you can get specific, but how you do one thing things, how you do anything, and if you find a new way to move in your body, that correlates to something in your life, you do that enough, it rewires those neural pathways. And then when you go to do that thing for real in your life, you have this new feeling, right?

Andrew Daniel: You’re you’re rewired in this more functional way. And so there’s no strategies, there’s no new tactics to learn. You just naturally just show up that way. So in exchange for the confronting intense shadow work in the beginning and the willingness and courage to go into these places, the result is an almost permanent, lifelong joy, happiness functionality that you don’t have to keep compensating with.

Andrew Daniel: It’s just your natural way of being.

Dean Pohlman: Hmm.

Andrew Daniel: It’s a body.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. That gives you some great ideas. So thank you.

Andrew Daniel: You’re welcome.

Dean Pohlman: Wow. Um, I don’t know how I just keep going on with my day after this, but we’re going to try. Thanks for letting me through all that. That was a really profound.

Andrew Daniel: You’re welcome. Thanks for your great questions and your willingness to do this and your courage to do it in front of your audience. I hope through your leadership and your courage and your willingness that everyone listening or watching you will get something from this.

Dean Pohlman: Thank you. Me, too. All right. Well, Andrew, thanks for being a repeat guest here on the Better Man podcast. And guys, I hope you enjoyed the episode. Make sure you go check out Andrew’s book because it’s got all the stuff here that we talked about, Awaken to your True Self. So, all right, we’ll see you guys later. Thanks again, Andrew.

Andrew Daniel: All right. Thanks, Dean.